C-betting Questions; OOP and in position

[Fortitude]

Sorry for all the questions! I'll try my best to post replies on all of your threads if I feel I have something to offer! And I really do appreciate all of your guys help.

Anyways, I am often lost on what flops to c-bet. I've read the c-betting article on FTR, but like, in-game I still have trouble knowing what to fire on the flop. I have a sample hand but let me explain my perceptions on c-betting first. I just feel like the best flops to bet are the ones that least hit my opponent, but then again, these bets are the least believable because my average villain (a 1-tabling 20/12 donk) is thinking, "hmm, he has a tight raising range, and if he hit that flop, why would he bet it out if he has a monster hand?" And then I always have trouble firing on drawy flops or flops with a broadway card that is not in my hand because I feel as if my opponent will call a lot of times with just a pair or any sort of draw.
The majority of flops I play when I have raised PF include, AQ, AK, sometimes AJ and TT-QQ also troubles me when I raise PF and a K or A comes on the flop, because I feel as if my opponent is most likely to have these cards out of all of the possible cards. Thanks.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 3.4 Tournament, 50/100 Blinds (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG (t2360)
MP (t8470)
Hero (Button) (t1620)
SB (t1465)
BB (t1085)

Hero's M: 10.80

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9, A
2 folds, Hero bets t250, 1 fold, BB calls t150

Flop: (t550) K, J, 8 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: (t550) K (2 players)
BB bets t200, Hero folds

Total pot: t550


On this hand I do not bet because I feel as if that flop has hit villains range pretty hard and that I have to give him more respect because he called the raise OOP with not so great pot odds. I think he was running at about 16/8 or something like that

Thanks

[Fortitude]

OK, so here's what I'm going to do.
I took a deck of cards and gave myself AsQc. I then dealt a flop from the deck, reshuffled and kept dealing flops until I had 25 flops written down.

My average opponent will be somewhere between loose and tight, his range will be 17.6% (I just made this up, I think it should be fairly accurate at the $3.40s); 44+,A5s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,A8o+,KJo+,QJo.

I will rate my 25 flops in two ways;
1) I am in position and my villain checks to me.
2) I am out of position and I am first to act on the flop.

I will then rate whether I will c-bet on a scale of 1-3.
1 being I will almost never c-bet
3 being I will almost always c-bet
2 is opponent dependent and how high the blinds are and pot size, etc.

Assume that I lead out on all made hands for value

IN POSITION, VILLAIN CHECKS TO ME
1. 3s3hJd - 3
2. 7d6d7c - 3
3. 9d6dTs - 1/2
4. 3cJs7s - 2
5. 9dKh8s - 2
6. 5dTc3h - 3
7. Ts3d5d - 3
8. 7hTd2d - 3
9. Jh7d5d - 2
10. 6h5d2h - 3
11. Js2d7s - 3
12. 9s5s3h - 3
13. 2d7s3d - 3
14. 3sQs3d - 3
15. 9hTc3d - 3
16. Kc8d3d - 1/2
17. 3cAc7h - 3
18. 9h2cKs - 2
19. 8cKh2d - 2
20. 5s6hKh - 2
21. 2s4s8s - 3
22. Ac7cQd - 3
23. 8h6d8d - 2/3
24. 3dJsKc - 1
25. 6c8c6h - 3

OUT OF POSITION FIRST TO ACT
1. 3s3hJd - 2
2. 7d6d7c - 2
3. 9d6dTs - 1
4. 3cJs7s - 2
5. 9dKh8s - 1/2
6. 5dTc3h - 2
7. Ts3d5d - 2
8. 7hTd2d - 2
9. Jh7d5d - 1/2
10. 6h5d2h - 2
11. Js2d7s - 2
12. 9s5s3h - 3
13. 2d7s3d - 3
14. 3sQs3d - 3
15. 9hTc3d - 2
16. Kc8d3d - 1
17. 3cAc7h - 3
18. 9h2cKs - 1/2
19. 8cKh2d - 1/2
20. 5s6hKh - 1/2
21. 2s4s8s - 3
22. Ac7cQd - 3
23. 8h6d8d - 2
24. 3dJsKc - 1
25. 6c8c6h - 3


If you could just give me feedback on some of them if you have time, it would be great. Especially where you would cbet more frequently/less frequently

Thanks

[taipan168]

On the hand you posted, you were right not to c-bet, that flop would have hit quite a bit of opp's range and even if it didn't there are a few draws there that opp might choose to chase. Knowing when to c-bet really comes with experience and understanding based upon your reads on each player. In particular, don't c-bet against the real fish calling station type players since they'll never fold their QTo on an Jxx board.

my average villain (a 1-tabling 20/12 donk)

I can think of many players who are far more donkish that somebody who has 20/12 stats.

BTW, don't worry about posting too many hands - that's what the forums are for

[Fortitude]

i would say 20/12 is close to the average player at the $3.40turboes including the nitty regs and LAGGs

[Fielmann]

my average villain (a 1-tabling 20/12 donk) is thinking, "hmm, he has a tight raising range, and if he hit that flop, why would he bet it out if he has a monster hand?"

Aren't you giving too much credit to your opponents there? It seems to me that the average donk at the $3.40 level is more often thinking: "Dam, I missed the flop. I guess I better fold. I'm a really good player, because I know when to let the hand go." That's why c-betting is so profitable. Remember that you get best results when you think exactly one level deeper than your opponent. At low levels, that usually means being aggressive when flop doesn't hit opponent's range, and being cautious when it does.

TT-QQ also troubles me when I raise PF and a K or A comes on the flop

Here check-calling is often the best option. C-betting doesn't make much money, because opponent will rarely fold a TP and will rarely call without a TP. Checking, on the other hand, may induce a bluff.

you were right not to c-bet, [because] [...] there are a few draws there that opp might choose to chase. [...] don't c-bet against the real fish calling station type players since they'll never fold their QTo on an Jxx board.

What's wrong with getting worse hands to call when they don't have the odds? Is it because they usually have the odds, because we usually don't dare to second-barrel?

[TLR]

With one player seeing the flop and checking it I think I will still c-bet it, it is a very bad fold for your hand, but since the board is so coordinated if opp hits he would probably bet it out