$10 DON - Fold AA pre!?!?

[Micro2Macro]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $10.00+$0.40 Tournament, 200/400 Blinds 40 Ante (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP (t1860)
CO (t2520)
Button (t470)
SB (t670)
Hero (BB) (t2710)
UTG (t6770)

Hero's M: 3.23

Preflop: Hero is BB with A, A
UTG bets t800, 4 folds, Hero..

[Micro2Macro]

I just SNG Whizzed it and it said fold.

Feels so sick :/

[Nakamura]

With two stacks so short so short, it's a fold. When called, you are going to win around 80%, which probably isn't enough.

[Micro2Macro]

yeah, these just don't feel like poker anymore to me. though I do come from a cash game background.

[KoRnholio]

yeah, these just don't feel like poker anymore to me. though I do come from a cash game background.

Because they really aren't real poker. I played them for awhile, but realized to get good at them I would have to significantly deviate from my good aggressive shorthanded play. To me, altering my play significantly just to reach the same ROI I get in normal games just didn't make sense.

I realize there are pros to playing these, such as if you are on a short roll, but I've given up on them.

[drmcboy]

I guess they make sense kinda to build a BR since i assume almost everyone at these levels is incapable of making a fold like this but then it really doesn't since you will presumably then jump into other games and you've lost a lot of good training you could have had at lower stakes.

I would say don't bother with SNGs at all except that it's good to practice short handed if you want to play MTTs at some point.

[Micro2Macro]

Yeah I think DON's are a great way to build a bankroll. Typically the variance seems quite low (from my observation), and getting into a spot where you have to fold AA preflop probably only happens every 100 games or so? Maybe more/less, or perhaps my perception is biased. I've played about 300 total and I don't think I've ever been in a situation like this with AA yet. I imagine if you can make this fold as if it were super standard then you'd do well in these things.

I've also been playing turbo SNG's, which I think are a better option for my developement as a player, because I do plan on getting into MTT's more in the future. I've been playing them a bit lately for some experience and have been studying MTT strategy quite a bit, however I feel like I am missing value in building my bankroll as the cash grind provides more steady returns. I'm in no rush though and I have the time resources to learn multiple variants due to my current situation.

I thought about getting into MTT's more once I hit $100nl. So I'd have ~ $4k roll and be able to shop around a bit in terms of buyin levels, though I'm playing in events <$10 at the moment to put some of the principles I've been learning into practice.

Question for you SNG/MTT regs: Are DON's closely related to satellite play? It seems like they would be, though I know that satellites have numerous different payout structures..

Also, at what point in my cash grind would YOU recommend I get into MTT's more. I was thinking $100nl as stated, though I'm open for any suggestions since I'm not really sure what levels of MTT's match up to correpsonding cash game levels in terms of ability/skill.

[golfguy37]

I don't see how you can fold the nuts preflop. There is no way I could lay this down. But I guess it depends on payout from 6th to 1st-2nd. How many people entered it?

[Nakamura]

I don't see how you can fold the nuts preflop. There is no way I could lay this down. But I guess it depends on payout from 6th to 1st-2nd. How many people entered it?

10 people, 5 get paid. If the short-stack has 1 chip left and is chewing the blind in the next hand, are you still gambling with AA? The idea is, because of the flat payout structure, there is a point where gambling with AA no longer makes any sense. You are taking on a 20% risk of not placing for less than that in tournament equity.

Because they really aren't real poker.

lol, we are playing Texas Hold 'em right? Just because the payout structure is different, doesn't mean it isn't poker anymore. You just need to apply your mind differently.

To me, altering my play significantly just to reach the same ROI I get in normal games just didn't make sense.

If you're getting the same ROI, something is a bit messed up. Generally you'd expect a lower ROI in DONs, but you can play so many more at once you might expect your $/hr to outstrip that from normal SNGs.

Question for you SNG/MTT regs: Are DON's closely related to satellite play?

Pretty much identical. If you can play one well, you should do quite well at the other.

[drmcboy]

I never did the cash grind so I can't speak to the limits/difficulty exactly, although if you're properly rolled for both cash games will certainly have better play.

[kevster]

I just SNG Whizzed it and it said fold.

Feels so sick :/

You shouldn't feel bad about it when you know it's the correct play.

i assume almost everyone at these levels is incapable of making a fold like this

And many other folds besides. The number 1 mistake I see regularly at DONs is that people call too much which usually means they don't fold enough.

[Luco]

I've played a few DoN's and they are basically a roll builder.

Very soft, very low variance - but you won't learn while playing them.

[Nakamura]

A real example of why you need to fold AA sometimes...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $10.00+$0.40 Tournament, 300/600 Blinds 60 Ante (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (CO) (t410)
Button (t2578)
SB (t7867)
BB (t2640)
UTG (t320)
MP (t1185)

Hero's M: 0.33

Preflop: Hero is CO with 2, 6
3 folds, Button bets t1200, SB raises to t7807 (All-In), 1 fold, Button calls t1318 (All-In)

Flop: (t5996) K, Q, 4 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: (t5996) 8 (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (t5996) 9 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: t5996

Results:
Button had A, A (one pair, Aces).
SB had 10, J (straight, King high).
Outcome: SB won t5996

[drmcboy]

UTG (t320)

a hahahahaha

also lol at him raising the half stack. format fail!

[Projectp]

That hand really happened? Haha how soft are these games

[Nakamura]

That hand really happened? Haha how soft are these games

Totally real, it happened last night. Most people can not release AA no matter what the other stack sizes at the table are. Of course I nearly fell out of my chair laughing. So while it was for me, I'm sure he felt more like ...

[Luco]

I wonder if SnGwiz can adjust for the fact that the damn shorties just wont die already...

[philly and the phanatics]

I've played a few DoN's and they are basically a roll builder.

Very soft, very low variance - but you won't learn while playing them.

these thigns were soft a year ago when it first came out and all the fishies were like "NEW GAME YAY" and you could enter and basically sit out and make it to the money...but now they are pertty tough id say...

[kevster]

I've played a few DoN's and they are basically a roll builder.

Very soft, very low variance - but you won't learn while playing them.

these thigns were soft a year ago when it first came out and all the fishies were like "NEW GAME YAY" and you could enter and basically sit out and make it to the money...but now they are pertty tough id say...

They're still soft up to and including $10 (not sure about the $20s) - you just need to adjust your SNG game - lots.

Because they really aren't real poker. I played them for awhile, but realized to get good at them I would have to significantly deviate from my good aggressive shorthanded play. To me, altering my play significantly just to reach the same ROI I get in normal games just didn't make sense.

[TLR]

Just ran ICM on this hand (I ignored the Antes)
If you fold you have 19.32%, if you call and win you have 19.92%
You need to be 96.98% favorite to win this hand if he calls

if he folds you have 19.76% of the prize pool

Assuming he has a random hand hero is 85% favorite to win so clearly if villian calls 100% of the time folding is the correct move

0.1992*0.85*(1-x)+0.1976*x = 0.1932
x= 84.4%

So in conclusion if you assume that villan will fold to your reraise more then 84.4% of the time then pushing over is a good move, otherwise fold is the correct move.

Since it is very unlikely villian will fold to your reraise more then 84.4% of the time it is a fold

[illphillllllll]

its an easy laydown for the situation at hand. why gamble when you can fold your way into the top 5. i play a few DONS a week, closest i came to this situation was having KK facing an all in about the 3rd hand of the game. it sucked to lay it down but i felt confident that i could make top 5 without winning that specific hand.