Some people will never be as good as others at poker.......

[IowaSkinsFan]

No matter how hard they try..... Some people have minds to be a great poker player, some don't.

Discuss?

[Toadstool]

No, I dont think this is true, Personally I believe that anyone can do anything if they set their mind too it and work hard. someone who is 25 stone CAN lose weight and become an 11 stone fighting machine if they work hard enough. The difference between people generally is how quick they learn, some people can learn how to become good players in a quarter of the time it might take somebody else, but that somebody else CAN become a great poker player with enough hard work and determination.

As long as the person is mentally healthy they become great, same applies to physically healthy people, obviously someone born with one leg couldnt become a great sprinter etc.

[siknd]

No matter how hard they try..... Some people have minds to be a great poker player, some don't.

Discuss?

of course. just like everyone will have varying levels of IQ, each poker player will have a varying maximum potential. and just like in life not everyone will take advantage of that potential. which is why we have doctors and lawyers in society but also garbage men and grocery tellers.

[martindcx1e]

this is true. also, anybody canNOT do anything they set their mind to.

[bearcats05]

No, I dont think this is true, Personally I believe that anyone can do anything if they set their mind too it and work hard. someone who is 25 stone CAN lose weight and become an 11 stone fighting machine if they work hard enough. The difference between people generally is how quick they learn, some people can learn how to become good players in a quarter of the time it might take somebody else, but that somebody else CAN become a great poker player with enough hard work and determination.

As long as the person is mentally healthy they become great, same applies to physically healthy people, obviously someone born with one leg couldnt become a great sprinter etc.

with certain things yes. but not poker

[IowaSkinsFan]

I thought this topic would yield both arguments.

[martindcx1e]

it did didn't it?

[TerryToma]

i think having an obssessive personality helps (OCPD).

edit-from wikipedia

he DSM-IV-TR, a widely used manual for diagnosing mental disorders, defines Obsessive-compulsive personality disorder as a "pervasive pattern of preoccupation with orderliness, perfectionism, and mental and interpersonal control, at the expense of flexibility, openness, and efficiency, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by four (or more) of the following:

* Preoccupation with details, rules, lists, order, organization, bodily functions, or schedules to the extent that the major point of the activity is lost
* Showing perfectionism that interferes with task completion (e.g., is unable to complete a project because his or her own overly strict standards are not met)
* Excessive devotion to work and productivity to the exclusion of leisure activities and friendships (not accounted for by obvious economic necessity)
* Being overconscientious, scrupulous, and inflexible about matters of morality, ethics, or values (not accounted for by cultural or religious identification)
* Inability to discard worn-out or worthless objects even when they have no sentimental value
* Reluctance to delegate tasks or to work with others unless they submit to exactly his or her way of doing things
* Adopting a miserly spending style toward both self and others; money is viewed as something to be hoarded for future catastrophes
* Showing rigidity and stubbornness

It is important to note that while a person may exhibit any or all of the characteristics of a personality disorder, it is not diagnosed as a disorder unless the person has trouble leading a normal life due to these issues.

[swiggidy]

No matter how hard they try..... Some people have minds to be a great poker player, some don't.

Discuss?

Agreed. Some people can not wrap their minds around the mathematical basis. Some can not understand the street smarts (playing the player). Few will understand both...

[TerryToma]

i think its a lot of pattern recognition/right brained memory. once the basic odds are learned by heart its less mathematical and more art.

[Turska]

I dont claim to be good poker player. I am just beginning to learn it
but I can really tell that I am obsessive personality by nature. I have
had numerous interests/hobbys and I completely devote myself to them.

I am really obsessive about money and statistics. I keep complete
statistics of my poker sessions, where I have spent my money,
how much gasoline I have put in my car at spesific mileage and
keep diary etc...

I think also some personality types suites poker better than others.
Especially online-poker. I think INTJ ISTJ personalities are great for poker player.

T.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
think having an obssessive personality helps (OCPD).

edit-from wikipedia

he DSM-IV-TR, a widely used manual for diagnosing mental disorders, defines Obsessive-compulsive personality disorder as a "pervasive pattern of preoccupation with orderliness, perfectionism, and mental and interpersonal control, at the expense of flexibility, openness, and efficiency, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by four (or more) of the following:

* Preoccupation with details, rules, lists, order, organization, bodily functions, or schedules to the extent that the major point of the activity is lost
* Showing perfectionism that interferes with task completion (e.g., is unable to complete a project because his or her own overly strict standards are not met)
* Excessive devotion to work and productivity to the exclusion of leisure activities and friendships (not accounted for by obvious economic necessity)
* Being overconscientious, scrupulous, and inflexible about matters of morality, ethics, or values (not accounted for by cultural or religious identification)
* Inability to discard worn-out or worthless objects even when they have no sentimental value
* Reluctance to delegate tasks or to work with others unless they submit to exactly his or her way of doing things
* Adopting a miserly spending style toward both self and others; money is viewed as something to be hoarded for future catastrophes
* Showing rigidity and stubbornness

It is important to note that while a person may exhibit any or all of the characteristics of a personality disorder, it is not diagnosed as a disorder unless the person has trouble leading a normal life due to these issues.

[WhooFleuryScores]

I think we all have a ceiling to a certain extent but it has been found that 95% of the "star" qualities can be learned (i.e. schoolwork, success with the opposite sex,etc) and I think poker esp can be attainable by most of us. I am nowhere near as good as most people but I feel like I've been making some progress. Id say the begginning is def hand selection, and all the other basic rules but after the first few monthes the rest is experience, learning from mistakes, etc....

[bigboy5540]

this question is true but yet doesnt apply to the most of us because the level which most of us can not reach is a level that most of us do not plan on reaching anyway (such as 25/50 nl). i think with good practice and patience most of us can be good enough players to beat levels up to 5/10 nl.

[bigboy5540]

it may take some longer to reach that level but everyone can reach it...if they have a healthy mind. i dont consider those with compulsive gambling addiction and mental instability people with "healthy minds" which is why they will have the most trouble beating holdem.

[TerryToma]

the more i think of it, the more deductive reasoning/pattern recognition is important.

people with training in sciences, diagnosis, law, programming should be good at poker. what do u think?

[johnny_fish]

I agree a analytical mind, knowledge and experience is all what it takes to beat low-medium stakes. After that it's psychology though. Luckily you can earn a lot already by beating low stakes

[The Izebox]

With an average amount of ability, and an average amount of desire anyone can be a very good, profitable player.

Some people are inherently stupid. A stupid person cannot learn to be a good poker player.

Some people lack desire. I have a friend who began to play in early 2004 (about the same time as I) We both were attending Ohio State University at the time (So he is not stupid.) Yet he has never been able to become a profitable player. When he loses a big pot , rather than saying "where did I make a mistake? When could I have got away earlier? " He rants and raves about bad beats, about how retarded it is that his aces could be cracked by pocket threes. He cant understand why jack seven suited is not a good hand to play out of position, because one time he folded it he would have flopped a full house (and he will never make that mistake again!)

My point is that some people will never be able to fully grasp the nuances of the game, they will never be able to get past the rather unimportant factor of what they cards they have.

Most people have the capability to become a winning player however.

[andy-akb]

I think bigboy is dead on here and that a lot of you guys are building poker up to be some thing that you need to be a genius to beat the higher levels. I typically hate the cliche, you can do whatever you put your mind to because in our society that just isnt true; however, with poker it is pretty accurate. Poker takes out all factors like background, social class, education, etc. and if you do dedicate your time to it then there is no reason you couldnt work your way up to some of the higher levels. I agree that there is a point where an average person would hit a ceiling, but most of you put that ceiling way to low. $1000nl to $2000nl sounds about right, and with the way the games are growing in bet sizes right now, I wouldnt be surprised to see that number get even higher.

[johnny_fish]

When he loses a big pot , rather than saying "where did I make a mistake? When could I have got away earlier? " He rants and raves about bad beats, about how retarded it is that his aces could be cracked by pocket threes. He cant understand why jack seven suited is not a good hand to play out of position, because one time he folded it he would have flopped a full house (and he will never make that mistake again!)

Doesn't that qualify him as 'stupid'? Or at least not an analytical thinker (which is the key to become a solid player imo).

I agree that there is a point where an average person would hit a ceiling, but most of you put that ceiling way to low. $1000nl to $2000nl sounds about right,

I think a dedicated average person is unable to beat 1K NL. You're overestimating average people

[The Izebox]

In a poker sense that would be stupid play. But because he has the intellectual capacity to grasp college level concepts such as advanced calculus, physics, blahblahblah I dont think his problem is that he lacks the tools to be a good player. I think that he lacks either the desire to learn to be better or belief that someone can be better. That is why i said earlier that to be a good player you need to not only have the ability to learn (because there are some retards in this world) but you also must believe and want to become a better player.

[Rondavu]

It's my opinion that the best poker players think strongly on both sides of their brain. They're brainbedextrous. I think that's why I've been so successful. Though I hate math, and avoid it if I can, I actually aced advanced math courses in high school, but I also run an art department. It's the creatively logical aspect to poker that misses the mark with most of our lopsided human population. In short, poker is largely incompatible with our natural human makeup, since most of us think more heavily on one side than on the other.

I went to school with this guy who was hit by a mack truck as a child, and the logical side of his head was caved in. His creative side overcompensated, so he could listen to a song and play it instantly and perfectly on a guitar first try. It was amazing. I actually tested him with an obscure song one time, and he nailed it. Of course in the long run he sucked at life in general, because he made terrible decisions based on pure emotion. Kinda like a lot of chicks.

[swiggidy]

Of course in the long run he sucked at life in general, because he made terrible decisions based on pure emotion. Kinda like a lot of chicks.

nh

[theDEEPdish]

Of course in the long run he sucked at life in general, because he made terrible decisions based on pure emotion. Kinda like a lot of chicks.

You should right comedy or something

[TerryToma]

It's my opinion that the best poker players think strongly on both sides of their brain. They're brainbedextrous. I think that's why I've been so successful. Though I hate math, and avoid it if I can, I actually aced advanced math courses in high school, but I also run an art department. It's the creatively logical aspect to poker that misses the mark with most of our lopsided human population. In short, poker is largely incompatible with our natural human makeup, since most of us think more heavily on one side than on the other.

I went to school with this guy who was hit by a mack truck as a child, and the logical side of his head was caved in. His creative side overcompensated, so he could listen to a song and play it instantly and perfectly on a guitar first try. It was amazing. I actually tested him with an obscure song one time, and he nailed it. Of course in the long run he sucked at life in general, because he made terrible decisions based on pure emotion. Kinda like a lot of chicks.

i like that theory. i eat/write left handed and do sports (poorly) right handed.

[Rabid Dog]

Just because your smart, doesnt mean you cant be stupid.

[MetsFan259]

As far as smarts is concerned, I don't really think a person's IQ matters at all. You can go from Mike Matusow to Jenifer Tilly to Howard Lederer - it's fair to say Matuso and Tilly weren't planning on becoming rocket scientists before they got into poker; meanwhile, Lederer seems to have a much more intellectual side to him that both those other players do not have.They are all succesful poker players though.

The real question is are you able to grasp the concepts of poker? It can be done with not much smarts - it's just hard for some people due to their personalities.

[WhooFleuryScores]

I'd say it's def a balance between the intellectual and creative brain sides-you need the intellect to calculate/memorize/grasp the concepts of odds/EV/etc but you also need the creativity to change gears/vary play/made reads/etc....

I think with enough work and dedication the average player can eventually graduate to PL100 or NL100 (or at least attain the 10K bankroll).

[TerryToma]

i think having the right equpiment is key as well..

i was just thinking about the advantage i have playing 8 tables, no overlap, with pokertracker + hud.. along with 150k hands of experience that should give me +ev right there.

[BobbySalami]

100% true, I will never be a good poker player.

[Silly String]

For higher limits you forgot one key ingredient. Memory. All the best poker players have fantastic memories. It helps them in multiple ways. They remember live hands without computer assistance and can dissect the play to learn accordingly.
They also remember other people's betting patterns & tells. They will remember how people play certain hands when they show down their cards and put that away in their memory banks for future reference against the same opponents.

[dioufy77]

depends what you mean by great, if you mean being able to beat 10/20$ no limit holdem then yes it can be done but winning the world series main event, propably only certain people can do that, in general though with time and effort people can improve there skills at everything they do! to the level of greatness im not sure. everyone propably has 1 maybe 2 fields they could be great at. it could be tiddlywinks or it could be rugby but evryone is better at something then someone else.

[BankItDrew]

With an average amount of ability, and an average amount of desire anyone can be a very good, profitable player.

Some people lack desire. I have a friend who began to play in early 2004 (about the same time as I) We both were attending Ohio State University at the time (So he is not stupid.) Yet he has never been able to become a profitable player. When he loses a big pot , rather than saying "where did I make a mistake? When could I have got away earlier? " He rants and raves about bad beats, about how retarded it is that his aces could be cracked by pocket threes.

I like your post. It reminds me of my brother greatly.

I am 24 and he is 21. I started playing a couple years ago and he started about a year ago. We both love playing it and sometimes feels addicted to it, for me in a good way at least. I am a profitable player since playing online, but he is not. He does not have dicipline to handle a bankroll carefully, nor does he have the understanding of a lot of simple aspects of the game.

Although I am much much more of a student than he is, he still loves the game very much. The problem I have is this: Whenever I try to help, he shrugs me off or tells me to frig off (partly because I critique after a bad hand). How do I help him become a better player? Do I wait for him to ask me questions and just keep my mouth shut until then? I don't think it's a relationship thing between him and I, other than the fact that he just may not want to take criticizm from his older brother.

[midas06]

I think the title is true

[swiggidy]

I think the title is true

[martindcx1e]

I think the title is true

LOL POTY

[Wyvver]

I think anyone can learn the math/odds part of poker, and probably anyone can learn to read betting patterns if he is paying attention, and plays enough.

What I think not everyone can learn is the kind of emotional stability you need...always playing your best game, always staying focused, not starting to tilt.

So the technical side, yes I think anyone can learn it. The emotional side, selfcontrol, dedication, confidence in your game, I think some people cant learn.