help, you great goooods of poker!!

[Joke]

hello everyone! First off all i just wanna say that this site rocks ... very good forum with a lot of smart folks giving nice advice! I have played holdem for maybe 2 months, but I cant say i make any money at all =) i win some yes ... But i lose it quickly! First i tried my luck at the NL 0.5/1 tabels inspiered by our home game and wpt and such... This wasent my cup of tea so to speak.. I first was up like 100 bucks .. then i blow it all.. first on some idiotic call made by myself and then the tilt fallowing it. Anyway after this big loss I have played some MTTs and a lot of MTT freerolls. I actually placed cainda good in these: Got a place 20 and 22 out of 6000-7000 players. But im not making any money yet. I have also tried SNGs, mainly small with like a buck buy-in. I tend to suck in these to. My question is, where too start? I dont know if I want limit, it feels like the game of bad beats with peopel calling you down all the time. My problem seem to be my agression when playing. If i get big stacked in a MTT, I wanna steal pots every time i se weakness, no other big stacks in the hand. And it works some times... But suddenly I got called down and I dubbel some fruitcake up, and then I get angry and start stealing a bit to much... And suddenly im out! .. argh .. The two freerolls i placed 22 and 20 in a actually was first position for a great deal of time in both, with like 600 000 in chips .. and thats like 600 times the buy-in. How the **** can I loose such a lead?? Help me start playing holdem guys cus I really love this game! Limit or nl, short/full tabel, low-stakes or even lesser micro limits? Thx for advice! =) (sry spellin , sucks in the english bussines) ;p

[Humphrind]

Well, no one can make you a good poker player. You have to be willing and able to do that. But otehrs can put you on the right path.

First you have to decide what you want to play. You can be a profitable tournament player (MTT or SnG) or ring game player (NL or limit) But if what you are looking for is money, you need to pick 1 and focus on it.

That is the difference between myself and Fnord (for example) I play a little bit of everything and have a lot of fun. I hit good runs and make money, but I don't focus on anything. Just wanter from room to room. It's fun, but not profitable. But Fnord will sit and focus on 1 type of game. he makes a lot of money at it and his $$ is his happiness.

After you decide, stick with it. Ask specific questions. Post hand histories and read books.

[Fnord]

That is the difference between myself and Fnord (for example) I play a little bit of everything and have a lot of fun. I hit good runs and make money, but I don't focus on anything. Just wanter from room to room. It's fun, but not profitable. But Fnord will sit and focus on 1 type of game. he makes a lot of money at it and his $$ is his happiness.

I'm not nearly the most specialized member of the board and until recently I wasn't even close to the most profitable.

Poker is all about $$. It's how we keep score...

[Radashack]

To add to zenmaster hump's good advice. Its not going to be an overnight process either it will take a lot of work. The most important thing is to be honest with yourself and your evaluation of your play. Its the only way you will find the holes in your game, and learn to play better poker. While I think you can be profitable playing multiple types of Holdem its best to start with one and really grind in out for a while and learn the in and outs. I started just like you I turned my 25$ deposit on UB into 150 and lost it all in one thunderous stupid play, but i think thats how a lot of us start .

My Suggestion would be to pick which game is the most fun for you currently then read every piece of information you can in that forum on this site. Then go buy a good book (there are numerous reviews on here as well). Study hand charts, odds, and how to calculate outs. You'll notice your game improve tremendously.

Good luck!

[Humphrind]

I'm not nearly the most specialized member of the board and until recently I wasn't even close to the most profitable.

You're right. ttanaka may have been the best example. But I still stand by my statement.

[Joke]

thx guys ... I think im going for NL MTTs, I have won some playing these and I alos feel like I pay a little to get a possible big payout. Expekt me to beat you soon! 8-) Can't someone point out the up's and down's of NL, limit and torunaments, maybe anyone who play one of these a lot. What you need to become a good player in these different types?

[Radashack]

Congrats you picked probably the hardest way to win money . It takes a lot to be able to win at MTT's, above all it requires Patience. It also takes a very sound strategy. My suggestion is you need to get a very good grasp of starting hands, Implied odds, and start thinking how to critically analyze a hand. I would suggest starting with cheap 2 table SNG's this will give you a basis to start develop your strategy, also play the 1$ 2$ 3$ 5$ MTT's for practice.

[LockLow34]

Take a look in the tournament forum, especially at the posts at the very top. Soupie's posts on MTT play are outstanding.

[Joke]

That sounds like good advice... hardest way to make money you say? thats me. You mean a great deal of luck or a lot of skill? Im not that good yet, maybe im in the wrong field? =) Is those freerolls giving any good practise or is it just garbage?

[Radashack]

A whole lot of skill, but you'll need luck too .

Freerolls are generally bad play, they can help you with learning to outlast, but generally people make very many poor decisions and is not a true MTT, better to play the ones with low buyin.

[astrodon]

Had a similar experience. I played a lot of Draw Poker and Three Handed Pinocle in college (35 years ago) and it made the difference between eating and not eating sometimes.

I played my very first Holdem game about two months ago, after watching the WSOP for about two years, in a home game and won. $20 buy in. I have played in eight since with the following results:

2nd Home Game finished second
Played a 3/6 game in a local Indian Casino with a $60 buyin and left with $131 an hour and a half later.
3rd Home Game finished first.
4th Home Game finished second.

I began studying the game in earnest and have lost the last three Home Games - bust early.

It seems the new information has interferred with my instincts. Is this normal?

[Iconoclastic]

My suggestion is to start with play chips first at a ring game. The quality of the competition with play chips is lowest, and the experience you'll gain will save you money than if you started in real money. Start at ring games first because it sounds like your biggest obstacle to success is lack of patience right now. Ring games require the MOST patience, so it'll help you deal with your shortcoming. After a while and you feel confident enough to move into real money and you feel that you're very patient at ring games, then go into the other formats that require more selective aggression. Good luck.

[Joke]

its a lot of good stuff written here! I knew I could count on you in this case -_- ... The lack of patience I got for sure but I think im better then "playmoney" level ... I might try some no-limt microlimit tabel tomorrow or buy-in for a pair of 1 dollar freez outs and try my best game. Im actually already quite familiar with the mats behind poker, potodds and such stuff. The problem is that when i already know this its even more embaresing that I cant become a good poker player ... But I will succed, I always do. It dosent matter witch game it is I will rule it sooner or later 8-)

[astrodon]

My suggestion is to start with play chips first at a ring game

I have spent some time with the 'play chips' thingy and you're correct about the patience thingy. I finished raising children ten years ago. It is very frustrating being locked in a room with a bunch of derilict junveniles flinging chips around for kicks.

Unless you know of a poker site of 'serious' students of the game who play with freebies?

doco

{This post has been removed}

[Iconoclastic]

I disagree with the notion that playing with play money will improve your game.

When playing with play money...people play with a complete lack of respect for the value of chips and will punch all in with garbage just because they can 'reload' if they bust out

On Poker Stars I have turned 1000 chips into over 700,000 but that doesn't make me any better of a player

stick to micro limits NLHE....at least there is real money involved (almost) and if you are patient you can wait around for pissed off maniacs who are almost busted and ready to go all in with crap.

Micro limit NLHE will be a better test for a budding poker player......forget play money unless you just want to have a little fun

I guess the fact that I started playing online poker at UltimateBet is why I don't feel the same way about playchips as you do. They used to have not only 10-20 NL playchip ring games, but 50-100, 200-400 and 1000-2000 tables too. I guess the quality of play at playchip tables at most sites are like how the 10-20 used to be at UB. But when you moved up in levels with playchips up to 1000-2000, it gradually and comfortably moved up in competition and quality of players. It was a great bridge to microlimit.

Unfortunately, UB has discontinued those tables and only offers 10-20 now.

Another reason why I suggested more playchip ring game practice for the ORIGINAL poster was that it seemed from his post that his most glaring weakness was lack of patience and overaggression. There's nothing like facing all ins preflop from maniacs to develop your patience and idiots calling your huge bluffs with medium flush draws to work on when (not) to bluff; not to mention (ok I'll mention) the bad beats you'll get at these levels with idiots calling with terrible pot odds and getting to develop the anti-tilt aspect of your game. Alot of fish aren't capable of rebounding quickly and fully from a bad beat, and a fish is what the original poster considers himself. Getting bad beat more and more at these idiot tables will only ensure that his playchip account will grow in the long run and affirm the important lesson that you want to get bad beat as much as possible in a sense.

[astrodon]

...for the ORIGINAL poster was that it seemed from his post that his most glaring weakness was lack of patience and overaggression

I am curious how this assumption was made. I merely took advantage of the only poker games available to me at the time and did well by anyone's estimation. Did you set in on those games?

[Radashack]

I Highly disagree with play chips, Highly. As Rippy said people hold no value in their chips and you get a skewed vision of how holdem is played. Its the same reason i don't suggest freerolls for practice, You don't learn how respect betting or learn how to bet respectably because you will continually and invariable get called on a consistant basis with crap. Its just not worth it. Plus it doesn't teach discipline with your chips/money, because they can arbitrarily be rebought. Now if you have now money then by all means practice this way, if you do have money, then don't.

[Tenny]

When I first started I played with play chips and 1.00 SnG's. I didn't learn a thing. Everyone plays like a maniac and I got bored of it real quick. I started with 5.00 SnG's and played them until I felt I could compete at that level and moved up to 10.00 and so on. You take your lumps at first, but if you stay with it you will get results.

[SteveO]

One word - "Bankroll". Make sure you have one if you want to really learn the game. You will take some loss as you negotiate the learning curve and take your share of beats/suckouts.

I play everything like Hump, short handed, rings, limit, no limit, MTT's whatever. However, each situation is a little different so you should pick one and specialize at first.

For .50/1 NL you need to have 10-20 full buy-ins. For limit 400 big bets, preferably more. Sit down and play, and play and play and play. That's how you learn. It would also help to read a book or 2.

[Joke]

The fine thing about MTTs seem to be that eventough the 1 buck freezouts got a lot of crasy manics just taking an all-in shot for a penny.. it also got some brainers, smart guys who play to get in the money. If these guys are week and cant play poker .. well then just sit tajt until most of the manics are gone... Dubbeling up on 80% winrate postflop only.. (trips and such) And then start play some poker picking on the "week" smallstacks... I think I somewhat know how to play poker in teori... I just have to stop going mad over mediumstacks calling all in with 73o.. and winning!

By the way what bankroll do you need for 1 dollar NL freezout MTTs? I dont know if 1 dollar is to little... it feels like eventough you win the 10 coinflips you need to take it home, you only win a mere 70 bucks or something... Is the competition harder if you move up to, lets say 3 bucks or something? I dont have such a big bankroll, but It might grow when I got some money to spare...

btw I play on the Prima Poker Network(expekt.com) now, but I might switch if I find something much better...

[Humphrind]

How much bankroll do you need to afford the $1 freezeout?

Well, if you want to gain a lot at poker, I'd suggest against freezeouts. You only have a 1 in 10 shot of winning a freezeout. SKill may bring that number up, but those odds aren't that good.

If you are looking into SnGs (Sig and Go / Single Table TOurnament) I would just play the regular ones. 10 people come in and top 3 pay. Keep it cheap, but watch out for rake. You don't want to spend any more than 10% on the rake (that means a $5 +$1 is not a great idea, unless you are sure of your skills)

As far as bankroll, it's nice to have approx 30 - 40X the buy in. You can go for less, but I wouldn't reccomend it to someone just starting out.

But as it was said many times before, get experience. Advice can teach you quite a bit, books can teach you quite a bit. But you will never be good at poker until you have some hands on experience.

[Iconoclastic]

...for the ORIGINAL poster was that it seemed from his post that his most glaring weakness was lack of patience and overaggression

I am curious how this assumption was made. I merely took advantage of the only poker games available to me at the time and did well by anyone's estimation. Did you set in on those games?

You're not the original poster. Joke was.

[amtorti]

I can understand you frustration. I started playing a year ago in the casino and then started on-line. First playing only tournaments and then
playing ring games.

First you should identify the kind of player that you are by nature. Are you
a Gus Hanson or Dan Harrington or someone in between? Second, find the
weaknesses in the style you play. Focus on the situations that cause you
the biggest losses and devise a strategy that you want to follow. If you keep this in the back of your mind, you will be prepared when it occurs.

Watching the pros it is obvious that they have great instincts in reading people, but also have a huge database of experience and can react to
the multitude of scenarios from that experience. Also reading and re-reading some of the poker books out there gives you the insight into how
the pros think.

I've played with some top players in the casino and noticed that most of them are pretty patient and let the game come to them. What we see on TV is a series of highlights on hands that were pivotal. What we don't see
is the grinding out of crap hands that were folded.

One pro had the following advice, "lose small pots and win big ones"

Good Luck

[astrodon]

You're not the original poster. Joke was

OOPS! I bet out of turn and position

First you should identify the kind of player that you are by nature. Are you
a Gus Hanson or Dan Harrington or someone in between? Second, find the
weaknesses in the style you play. Focus on the situations that cause you
the biggest losses and devise a strategy that you want to follow. If you keep this in the back of your mind, you will be prepared when it occurs.

In my everyday life I am a bit of a Chameleon. I wouldn't say devious though I can be if need be. I do this at the poker table without even thinkng about it. I go from tight to aggressive even a bit of a call station from time to time; I do what 'feels right' at the moment - it has proven to be an asset.

My weakness is having a tendency to be impatient, no not a tendency a fact. I am a can do, wanna do kind of personality and temperament but have a tendency to get frustrated and bored if things aren't moving along - I go to the game instead of letting it come to me. (I have a friend and business associate who is a billionaire. He once told me, "money doesn't have eyes but it has ears and will come when you call" The point being you must call consistently and persistently then BELIEVE it will come and be expecting it; he added "but you oftentimes don't recognize when it comes until it's too late". Does this sound a lot like poker?)

Contrariwise, when things do get to popping I have to be carefull not to 'outsmart' myself and not slow down and take a good look at the cards (my hand and community) and then ask a few basic questions about how folks have been betting this hand and other hands; this game & other games. There were many times I was convinced I had the nuts only to find out I was castrate! When I lose a game or a big hand it can nearly always be attributed to this fact somewhere in the game or during the unfolding of the hand, although I am getting better.

8-)

[Humphrind]

In my everyday life I am a bit of a Chameleon. I wouldn't say devious though I can be if need be. I do this at the poker table without even thinkng about it. I go from tight to aggressive even a bit of a call station from time to time; I do what 'feels right' at the moment - it has proven to be an asset.

No offense intended. But this sounds more like what you want to be, or what you wish you are. I would like to think that I can give an honest assesment of myself. But I realize that it is almost impossible to do.

I realize that you do have some more strict items listed. However, the above statement seems like answering an interview question with what they want to hear (I do that all the time)

The point being you must call consistently and persistently then BELIEVE it will come and be expecting it;

No no no. That's all wrong. You shouldn't call. You should raise.

[astrodon]

No offense intended. But this sounds more like what you want to be, or what you wish you are. I would like to think that I can give an honest assesment of myself. But I realize that it is almost impossible to do.

Non taken.

Personality profilers would say that I have a 'sanguine' temperament. In other words my environment dictates my thoughts, moods, actions, etc. This is what I meant and what I am...

[filiph83]

{link deleted by Humphrind}
Seams to be a good odds calculator

[cartilago77]

{link deleted by Humphrind}
Seams to be a good odds calculator

are you the head merchandising whore for this company?

[Humphrind]

{link deleted by Humphrind}
Seams to be a good odds calculator

You obviously didn't read our "no soliciting" policy.

Thank you, and goodbye.

[Xianti]

filiph83 has been banned for soliciting.

[studboyjoe]

I can't say enough about getting out of the play money tourneys, they teach you absolutely nothing, even if it's the highest play money buy-in tourney available. The 1$ tourneys are a decent start for beginners, but also have a tendency to be diffcult to learn from until you hit the late portion of the tourney, when most of the lesser players have been eliminated. Still, better that than play money any day.

Limit tends to be the easiest hold-em variety to learn, just show down the best hand and play reasonably tight and you should fare well. No limit ring games are where I have learned the most and the chance of winning consistently is probably better than multi-table tourneys. MTTs are great fun, though, and I play them as well although I only track my performance in ring games on poker tracker.