A (very obvious) revelation that may be helpful

[surviva316]

Hey all,

Just got done a session at TenNL against complete donk stats (40-60 VPIP and 30-80 call cbet percent), for like 3 of my 5 opponents, and I started to realize something. bet sizing against these type of players should be completely different ESPECIALLY on the flop. This is CRUCIAL for a lot of reason:

ONE: There is 0% need to merge your bet sizing on hands you hit with your cbets. This is probably the most obvious but i never internalized it before. you're gonna play so many 3-way pots against players who call a majority of cbets, so you should never be bluffing these players. OK that's like poker one 0 one, but the next step is to realize that since you're never cbetting your value bets aren't merging with anything; they're just undersized bets that aren't maximizing value (duh).

TWO: you need to protect hands, protect hands and protect hands. Draws, small pairs and such are calling so much that you need to give those hands the most terriblest odds possible odds to continue. if you're making half-2/3 PSB's on the flop when you hit TPTK then you're essentially waiting for the turn to come to get a good return on your hand which isn't profitable against calling stations.

THREE: they're calling anyway. i mean really. how often do you check your overpair in a 4-way pot so that you can eval, have someone min-bets their draw, you raise to the pot and they call anyway. sure the WANT to see the turn as cheap as possible but they never stay true to their promise to themselves in the end.

ok a lot of words to cover some ground that's obvious to so many of you anyway, but i thought it was worth pointing out to people who were in the dark as i was until this session. Spenda and IOPQ, feel free to tell me i'm pointing out the obvious.

NOTE ON POINT ONE: i know that merging ranges isn't a crucial concept at TenNL in general, but i think bet-sizing on the flop is an exception to this. i couldn't give two shits if i play a nut draw OOP differently from any other hand i play because no one will notice anyway (even thinking players aren't able to rely on players at this level to be consistent enough to take any super specific read like this as religion), BUT i think that cbetting is such a commonplace play that players will notice if you bet .6 into a dollar pot when you hit air and .8 into a dollar pot when you hit TPTK (i know that i do)

[dranger7070]

Hey all,

Just got done a session at TenNL against complete donk stats (40-60 VPIP and 30-80 call cbet percent), for like 3 of my 5 opponents, and I started to realize something. bet sizing against these type of players should be completely different ESPECIALLY on the flop. This is CRUCIAL for a lot of reason:

ONE: There is 0% need to merge your bet sizing on hands you hit with your cbets. This is probably the most obvious but i never internalized it before. you're gonna play so many 3-way pots against players who call a majority of cbets, so you should never be bluffing these players. OK that's like poker one 0 one, but the next step is to realize that since you're never cbetting your value bets aren't merging with anything; they're just undersized bets that aren't maximizing value (duh).

TWO: you need to protect hands, protect hands and protect hands. Draws, small pairs and such are calling so much that you need to give those hands the most terriblest odds possible odds to continue. if you're making half-2/3 PSB's on the flop when you hit TPTK then you're essentially waiting for the turn to come to get a good return on your hand which isn't profitable against calling stations.

THREE: they're calling anyway. i mean really. how often do you check your overpair in a 4-way pot so that you can eval, have someone min-bets their draw, you raise to the pot and they call anyway. sure the WANT to see the turn as cheap as possible but they never stay true to their promise to themselves in the end.

ok a lot of words to cover some ground that's obvious to so many of you anyway, but i thought it was worth pointing out to people who were in the dark as i was until this session. Spenda and IOPQ, feel free to tell me i'm pointing out the obvious.

NOTE ON POINT ONE: i know that merging ranges isn't a crucial concept at TenNL in general, but i think bet-sizing on the flop is an exception to this. i couldn't give two shits if i play a nut draw OOP differently from any other hand i play because no one will notice anyway (even thinking players aren't able to rely on players at this level to be consistent enough to take any super specific read like this as religion), BUT i think that cbetting is such a commonplace play that players will notice if you bet .6 into a dollar pot when you hit air and .8 into a dollar pot when you hit TPTK (i know that i do)

I'll take Spenda and iopq's place and say it: You're pointing out the obvious.

Bold: No, they really won't lol. Seriously, either they are 10+ tabling idiots who only bet when they hit something great, or they are complete droolers that just mash buttons to hear the beeps. No one (well, like 99%) won't be thinking, "Well 7 hands ago, he bet 70 into 1.10 with AK on a low flop, but checked on the turn, and now hes betting 90 into 1.10 and leading turn; he must have something, I fold." It just doesn't happen. If you find someone, that isn't already apart of FTR, that thinks like this at 10nl FR, I will eat my own balls.

But other then that, good observations though. I mean, this is all easily found information on this site, but that doesn't mean shit unless it really sinks in, which it obviously has now for you. A lot of people will read your post, and either already know this stuff, or DON'T know it, and their eyes will just see the words, but not understand them until a later point at which time they will make a siimilar post.

[surviva316]

lol, yeah i figured it was worth a try. as far as not merging Cbet sizing with TPTK bet sizing, are you certain that i don't need to be doing this against a standard opponent? does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

I mean i PFR every seventh hand and Cbet 60%, so these guys are seeing these bets every twelfth hand or so (and these hands sometime come back to back to back). also my table image generally seems to be aggressive, so i think i'm usually getting people's attention. i think even the "droolers" will start to play back at a sign of weakness (which would be only betting half-2/3 the pot, if i'm betting 3/4-full pot when i have something). Is this oversimplifying? giving the opponent too much credit?

[dranger7070]

At 10nl i seriously never even thought about merging that stuff. I would rarely (if ever) bet more than 2/3 pot on a c-bet with air (if i c-bet at all), and i always bet AT LEAST 2/3 pot with TPTK+. If you are at a table that is noticing this stuff, find yourself a new table.

[x] giving opp too much credit.

[surviva316]

well i guess there's only one way to find out for sure.

see ya at the tables and hopefully i have one more leak plugged