Better at SNG than ring?

[Pants_101]

Hi I'm a new player whose been lurking on this site
for a while now, thanks to everyone who has
contributed advice. I've read the articles and am
reading poker books so I am avoiding all the basic
mistakes and I'm doing pretty well in PP $6 SNG's
I usually finish in the money and I won my first one
last night I'm comfortable with the stakes and
the strategy and it just seems to suit me. But I
decided to have a go at ring play so I sat down
at a 0.15/0.25 25nl table as that is the cheapest, and well it
didn't go so good. I lost 2 buyins although I rallied
a bit late on. I just didn't feel I had a good grasp of
what I should be doing, despite knowing about pot
odds and pre flop betting and stuff like that. When I got top pair I didn't make much and I was knocked off anything else. Perhaps I didn't get very good cards, I certainly spent a lot of time folding but more likely I am just out of my depth. I suspect I am a weak tight nit Perhaps I should try a different site with lower stakes until I get the hang of it a bit more? Anyone else had trouble transfering their game between tournament and ring play?

[AHiltz]

I played SnG's solely for over a year when I started playing. It took me a few months to totally adjust to ring. So, yes, you're not alone.

[Monty9]

Don't feel rained on.

I've been playing for a while and still always loose a good chunk of my roll when I venture into ring. Maybe we don't hang long enough to allow for varience etc.

My SNG ROI is around20% over all so I my game is solid there.

I remember being on a heater for a few weeks and had like a 50% ROI in SNGs and kept blowing half of it by playing ring. Meh.

I think alot has to do with the static blinds and so many guys floating crap for the cheap blinds. Theres no start,mid,end strategy.

Hang in there,

[Pants_101]

Hmm yes I do like the fact that with SNG's you have a start and an end with clear winners and losers. But I would like to become a good ring player if possible. I think I'll look at some sites other than PP and try to find some lower stakes games. Plus keep on reading of course! I guess my concern is will this make me a better player? Will people respect my pre flop raises at very low stakes? Will my c-bets take down hands? I would imagine bluffing and stealing are very hard to pull off.

Maybe I'll post some hands later if I can figure out how to get hold of them. In SNG it asks you if you want them mailed to you but in ring it doesn't seem to do that

[jyms]

It hasn't been said yet so I'll say it. Don't play the low S&G's at party. The rake is too high. If you play 100 $5+$1's S&G's at party it costs you $50 more than other sites that charge $5+$.50. Thats another 9+ S&G's free. As for ring, yes find another site. Unless you're rolled for 25NL then don't play at party after 45 days. And forget about anything to do with blinds, play a survival tyupe game that you would play in the beginning of a STT. Don't play for stacks without the near nuts. And small edges matter more long term.

[Pants_101]

Thanks Trainer what you say makes sense, I will abandon the evil PP and try my luck elsewhere

[Gomez]

I am glad I am not the only one, I do OK at $5 and $10 SNGs, ring tables sometimes I am up a little, sometimes even double up or more but rarely.
Try PokerStars for lower stakes. I find that at the lowest stakes, the rooms wind up being about as serious as a high buy-in play money table! That is, people want to not embarass themselves, they do lay down to c-bets, and respect pre flop raises. They want to turn that $2.10 into $3 before quitting!

It is of course more maniacal than higher stakes.

[Pants_101]

Thanks Gomez I'll give Pokerstars a try. I do have the bankroll for 25NL but I don't feel I yet have the experience or skill to prosper there

[Xanadu]

There was a thread earlier this week about sharkscope on SNG players. SNGs are full of fish, and aren't a bad place to stay if it suits your style. There is nothing wrong in specializing in a certain type of game. I specialize in short handed limit, and do very well there. I do fine at FR limit, but not as good as short. I also do well at tournament NL, both SNG and MTT, but not quite as well as FR limit. I get pwned at ring NL. So I don't play it. So, if I give advice at ring NL, I might be full of crap (but I don't do it very often).

[zook]

In ring, keep reminding yourself not to get involved in big pots with hands worse than three-of-a-kind. Learning to fold top pair and even two pair to strong aggression will save you a lot of money. Once you have reads on players you can take more risks with these hands. My general advice is to just tighten up, especially in early position, and then when you get something, bet it hard. You'll be surprised how much money you can make at 25NL nut-camping. It's boring, but effective.

[Pants_101]

I think in my case it's not stubbornly hanging onto hands thats my problem, it's letting go of marginal hands when I am actually ahead! I feel I play ring much too weakly after the flop but I guess some things just come with experience

[zook]

Well, you'll lose a lot more by calling too much than folding too much But post some hand histories if you really want to know how weak/tight you are.

[Seasider]

In ring, keep reminding yourself not to get involved in big pots with hands worse than three-of-a-kind. Learning to fold top pair and even two pair to strong aggression will save you a lot of money. Once you have reads on players you can take more risks with these hands. My general advice is to just tighten up, especially in early position, and then when you get something, bet it hard. You'll be surprised how much money you can make at 25NL nut-camping. It's boring, but effective.

Thats it AK with K on flop is a monster in S&G but can be a real sucker at ring; wierd I know!

[zilch]

It hasn't been said yet so I'll say it. Don't play the low S&G's at party. The rake is too high. If you play 100 $5+$1's S&G's at party it costs you $50 more than other sites that charge $5+$.50. Thats another 9+ S&G's free.

That's not the whole situation, and i think it is wrong to say don't play the $6 sng's at party. From the 1k+ Sng's I've played at both Party and Stars, the party SnG's are definitelty softer, and my win rate (so including the rake) was much higher at Party than at Stars. The games are also very different due to the blind structures. So one game may suit someones style to the other.
So I agree that it is right to point out the extra $0.5 rake, but its wrong to say "dont". I think it's better to say move up as soon as you are comfotable as the $11 are just as soft as the $6 ones.

[Pants_101]

I went on Stars last night to play some micro limit ring and the site seems quite clunky compared to PP. I had a bit of trouble counting the chips when people were betting as I'm used to being just told the amount, but I guess I'll get used to that. If the $11 sng's at PP are good value though and a similar level to the $6 ones I might start playing them.

[jameseyb]

There's an option to show the pot/bet size in a hand. It got me too when I first played at Stars.

[dzeanah]

Or you could just turn on the "display bet amounts" feature.

[jyms]

Party is not the only soft site out there with $5 S&G's. Stars is not one of 'em. I found Stars to be fairly tight at the low limits. Definitly tighter than need be, so it may require an adjustment.

[Pants_101]

argh I was looking for a display bet amounts option but couldn't find it. I did manage to change the colour of the deck though woo Can you set it to 4 colour suits as well?

[dzeanah]

If you're still looking, it's immediately under the 4 color option.

[jyms]

nevermind

[dzeanah]

oh yeah - options are on the main window, not the table window

[Jiggus]

I find it quite amusing that I am a solid enough ring player, but am afraid to play too many sit n' go's. I only play when there are not enough ring games going on.

It's just that a 10 buck buy in means that I could spend an hour or more for nothing. With ring, on average, you spend an hour and will always make money, just maybe not so much. But maybe my logic is unsound, which wouldn't be a big surprise.

But maybe SNG's prepare you better for tournaments? I've just discovered a new game on Paradise which is the mini-tourney and that seems interesting.

[jameseyb]

Quoting Jiggus: With ring, on average, you spend an hour and will always make money.

Jesus, I wish! I have a losing habit when it comes to ring, something that SNGs just does not seem to be. Hell, my last two attempts at STTs ended with me hitting 3rd and 2nd, whilst my last couple of attemtps at ring were three hour sessions each on three tables and saw me down about half a buyin overall and down a buyin and a half overall!

There's something about SNGs that suits my style of play more, maybe it's the aggression in the later parts of the game, but I like the way that ring takes up my time in a more sustained way. SNGs are the equivilent of jumping off a cliff - All the excitement at once. Ring's like doing a long mountain bike ride... The excitement's still there, it's just spread out over a longer period.

J

[flomo]

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...highlight=ring

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...highlight=ring

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...highlight=ring

if you haven't already checked these threads out^^^^^

[Renton]

Quoting Jiggus: With ring, on average, you spend an hour and will always make money.

Jesus, I wish! I have a losing habit when it comes to ring, something that SNGs just does not seem to be. Hell, my last two attempts at STTs ended with me hitting 3rd and 2nd, whilst my last couple of attemtps at ring were three hour sessions each on three tables and saw me down about half a buyin overall and down a buyin and a half overall!

There's something about SNGs that suits my style of play more, maybe it's the aggression in the later parts of the game, but I like the way that ring takes up my time in a more sustained way. SNGs are the equivilent of jumping off a cliff - All the excitement at once. Ring's like doing a long mountain bike ride... The excitement's still there, it's just spread out over a longer period.

J

I think what he meant was that ring is generally a lower variance game than sngs or mtts.

Theres a greater edge to exploit in ring because the stacks are deep. In sngs the skill edge dissipates as the blinds increase. By the time M's are <8, going all in with AQ become the best play, and its the play that everyone, even fish, know to make. Thats not to say that there isn't any skill involved in playing a short stack; quite contrary. However, the edge isn't as exploitable as M=75 ring games.

[KingLizard]

But maybe SNG's prepare you better for tournaments?

I play SnGs occassionally. It's a nice change of pace, and if I am in a semi-tilt mode, my aggression factor goes up and I tend to play better in the SnG. As for tournaments, the SnG play has been a definite help. I have made the FT a few times in MTTs and when it gets to 5-6 left, my SnG experience is a definite plus.

[Jiggus]

I do play the odd SnG, like you, for a change of pace. I'm just too chicken to try them for a longer run. They are fun, especially when I'm in the money, but if I lose a couple, I keep thinking, "Damn, 3 hours of ring taken out of my playing schedule for squat!"

I think, too, that when you have a limited time window for playing, you really need to focus on what has been working for you and not try to experiment too much. To be specific, I usually only play in the early mornings, before anyone is awake, and that means about 250 ring hands, on average. If I would play a SNG instead it seems just too risky to me.

Is that timid thinking?

[Pants_101]

I think it's a question of style and preference, of the last 5 $11 sng's I played I got 2 firsts, a second, a third and a fifth. Since I'm not very good at ring and I enjoy the sng much more, that's what I play Obviously I need to play a lot more to see if I can be consistently successful but so far so good.
I'm not grinding it or anything, I played these 5 over the last 4 days just because I enjoy it, but if I keep doing well I might step it up and try to earn some spending money! Incidentally I found the Harrington on Hold'em books to be really excellent for thinking about tournament style play.

[biondino]

I have lost a bit of confidence in my ring play right now (predominantly because I was on holiday so I didn't play apart from one 1.5-buyins-down session) and I am really enjoying SNGs, so that's what I'm playing. It'll change in a week or two, I'm sure.

[The Don]

I'm in the same boat as you. I do amazing in tourneys and sit and go's, but I lose all my money in ring games.

I'd check out some of the suggestions in http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...=342068#342068 . It's got some solid advice to ease the transition between ring games and SnG's.