Playing against bad loose players

[Checkways]

Need some advice on this.

When I was playing limit, I would always look for the calling stations. I would change tables multiples times just looking for them.

Now that I play no limit, I've realized that I lose the most money against loose players. Not the good kind either. I lose to beginners and calling stations. My bluffs just don't work against them.

Problem is that the table will drastically change to loose when one or two of these guys come to the table and increase the size of the pots.

Waiting for monster hands just totally screws up my game. I don't know how to play like that. Even premium cards miss flops and get outdrawn. How many flops do I pay to see to get monster hands?

I think maybe my bluffs aren't big enough to scare looser players. Or maybe I shouldn't bluff at all against them. Or maybe I should just change tables.

It's just so annoying because they're really pretty bad. They never fear getting outkicked and I can never tell if they're just calling with low pair, a draw, overcards, or a monster.

Against a good loose player, I don't have much of a problem. I can still bluff because he will read me as being tight. He knows what a scare card is.

Advice would be appreciated.

[Bmxicle]

I don't get why so many people have this problem, its pretty straight forward. Don't bluff. Maybe make the odd continuation bet when you are HU with someone, and maybe bluff the occasional small pot, but other then that you shouldn't bluff. Also you always need to be looking to extract more from marginal hands like top pair and such.

[Greedo017]

well, do you actually play tight? the way you describe yourself, you sound loose, and even though you see them as never fearing kickers and them being unreadable, maybe you are the same way?

[Rondavu]

The money you would normally make bluffing down pots against tight players is compensated by the extra money loose players pay you for your good hands.

If you don't know how to tighten up and play like 4 hands an hour than poker is not for you.

[underminedsk]

I am sucessful at continuation betting 25NL. Just make sure you have position, make sure the guy isnt horribly short stacked, make sure you isolated properly preflop, and most of all make sure that if called down on the flop you dont drop your stack on your bluff. If your going to showdown after bluffing to be beat by middle pair, you have some probelms to work out with your bluffing.

Or, get a BR and move to limits where 80% of the people arent retarded.

[outphase]

Or, get a BR and move to limits where 80% of the people arent retarded.

This is the worst thing you can do. If you cannot consistently beat one level, the next one isn't easier because the play will be better, as in, you will be legitimately beat.

[TylerK]

I don't get why so many people have this problem, its pretty straight forward. Don't bluff.

[storm75m]

I would always look for the calling stations.


My bluffs just don't work against them.

LMAO, You look for people who call you down, then you're mad cause they're calling you down... I'm so confused. Irony at it's finest.

[evman150]

If you can't beat the worst players there are, then you suck at poker. Simple as that.

You sound like a bad player anyway.

[face]

If you can't beat the worst players there are, then you suck at poker. Simple as that.

You sound like a bad player anyway.

Why are you so nasty? -EV, man. Lighten up.

[underminedsk]

Man you guys are all so horrible to this guy....dont we want more of the world to be -EV?

[Element187]

i think it was said already .. dont bluff if they are calling stations.

bluff the tighties, and make the calling stations pay you off. very elementary poker.

[Checkways]

I don't get why so many people have this problem, its pretty straight forward. Don't bluff. Maybe make the odd continuation bet when you are HU with someone, and maybe bluff the occasional small pot, but other then that you shouldn't bluff. Also you always need to be looking to extract more from marginal hands like top pair and such.

I know that the safe play is just not to bluff against these players. I was hoping that there was more to it than that. I never ever do a follow up bluff against them. (which might be a bad move) But it's such a shame to let them take the action away from you. And I never bluff at small pots with these people. There's no point. I'm mostly talking about continuation bets when I have position or if I'm already invested.

Most of the time I don't hit the flop of course. So if I don't make moves against these people, they're usually getting the best of it. That's a shame. I might as well play low limit.

[Checkways]

well, do you actually play tight? the way you describe yourself, you sound loose, and even though you see them as never fearing kickers and them being unreadable, maybe you are the same way?

That's a good question. There are varying degrees of tightness of course. Perhaps where I play the game is just much looser. I typically play less hands than most of the people at the table. I definitely call less raises than others. But I try to mix it up so people can't get reads on me.

When I first started playing no limit, I played super tight - by the book. I see people play that way all the time. When they get the cards, they are superstars. When they don't, they lose. In general, they're so easy to play against, that I decided that I don't want to be that guy anymore.

[Checkways]

The money you would normally make bluffing down pots against tight players is compensated by the extra money loose players pay you for your good hands.

If you don't know how to tighten up and play like 4 hands an hour than poker is not for you.

We have all had nights where the best hands we get in six hours is AQ, AK, and a couple of AJ. And they never hit the flop. So I guess that's just a losing session then? I'd like to think that poker is more than that even against really bad loose players. But perhaps it's not and I should just shut it down against these players and hope to get lucky. Just like they're trying to.

[Checkways]

I would always look for the calling stations.


My bluffs just don't work against them.

LMAO, You look for people who call you down, then you're mad cause they're calling you down... I'm so confused. Irony at it's finest.

My post says in LIMIT I look for calling stations. Not in no limit.

[Checkways]

If you can't beat the worst players there are, then you suck at poker. Simple as that.

You sound like a bad player anyway.

I'm trying to advance to the next level. Sure, I play against a lot of bad players in live games, but I'm generally well respected at my tables. If you played at a table with me (not saying I'd take your money) but you'd probably feel the same way. I play 10 to 30 hours a week, but just started playing limit poker last November. Started playing no limit just a couple of months ago. I've increased my bankroll by 600%.

I'm not a bad player, but I'm still learning.

The point of my post is that I'm looking for smart strategies to play against these players.

For example, "Call more of their raises with mediocre holdings" or "Overbet the pot when you hit the flop" or whatever.

[Checkways]

i think it was said already .. dont bluff if they are calling stations.

bluff the tighties, and make the calling stations pay you off. very elementary poker.

I'd like to think that there's more to it than that. Even the really bad players know not to pay off the grandma that hasn't made a bet in two hours.

Maybe I just haven't been hitting cards against these people. It'll turn around and probably make up for my losses and then some in the long run.

[BeatMeBad]

i think it was said already .. dont bluff if they are calling stations.

bluff the tighties, and make the calling stations pay you off. very elementary poker.

I'd like to think that there's more to it than that. Even the really bad players know not to pay off the grandma that hasn't made a bet in two hours.

Maybe I just haven't been hitting cards against these people. It'll turn around and probably make up for my losses and then some in the long run.

DON'T BLUFF. It just does not work most of the time. Sure, you can bluff the occassional pot but it is definately not worth it. Most of these people will call you down with ANY piece of the board or ANY draw. You have to use that to your advantage: Don't overbet your hands. Just value bet and watch them call you down with whatever junk they've become attached to. They'll call you down with their MP or TPWK and you'll build your stack

[ensign_lee]

First rule: don't bluff. It's not going to work.

However, you can loosen up...slightly. The point of being tight is to be tighter THAN THE PLAYERS AROUND YOU. If one of the guys out there is raising with freaking K 8 suited, then you can call even with normally subpar holdigns such as KJ. Simple as that. And if they're loose, but don't understand pot odds, you can call with more suited connectors and then just gage trying to chase based on pot odds.

Poker really has two facets: real poker, up at the higher limits, and playing cards, down at the lower limits.

Once you figure out the distinction, life in poker gets a little easer.

P.S. EVMan, why are you being so nasty lately?

[Checkways]

i think it was said already .. dont bluff if they are calling stations.

bluff the tighties, and make the calling stations pay you off. very elementary poker.

I'd like to think that there's more to it than that. Even the really bad players know not to pay off the grandma that hasn't made a bet in two hours.

Maybe I just haven't been hitting cards against these people. It'll turn around and probably make up for my losses and then some in the long run.

DON'T BLUFF. It just does not work most of the time. Sure, you can bluff the occassional pot but it is definately not worth it. Most of these people will call you down with ANY piece of the board or ANY draw. You have to use that to your advantage: Don't overbet your hands. Just value bet and watch them call you down with whatever junk they've become attached to. They'll call you down with their MP or TPWK and you'll build your stack

Yeah, I should just play it straight. I'll get paid off. Thanks.

[TylerK]

I know it's not as fun, but ABC play really does get the money against crappy players.

[Checkways]

And if they're loose, but don't understand pot odds, you can call with more suited connectors and then just gage trying to chase based on pot odds.

Hmm, good advice. Thanks.

[Element187]

i think it was said already .. dont bluff if they are calling stations.

bluff the tighties, and make the calling stations pay you off. very elementary poker.

I'd like to think that there's more to it than that. Even the really bad players know not to pay off the grandma that hasn't made a bet in two hours.

Maybe I just haven't been hitting cards against these people. It'll turn around and probably make up for my losses and then some in the long run.

well sorry there is nothing more to it then that .. the calling stations are the easiest to beat, so showing down strong hands to them is the only way to get paid .. bluffing doesnt show enough merit with these types of players.

there is a reason why calling stations are named the worst players in poker.

all they do is call, the only expert strategy with them is playing straight poker and withdrawing cash from them like an ATM

[Miffed22001]

Just to have my .000002cents worth
If u have a good hand against loose players then play it, just be prepared to pay a bit more for it.
If you miss at least pop the continuation bet down if you dont have owt dont bluff fold. Yes you lose chips but when u hit loose players will call u.
If u hit then hit them hard, real hard. If theyre as bad as u say theyll still call anyway. This will more than makeup for when u miss.
If u hit a monster let them bet at you. Then when u know theyre beat see if theyll still call mad raises. It will pay off.
If you cant be patient or u dont hit cards.....leave
Its that simple.
Yes there are plenty of other more elaborate strategies that shudnt be ignored but keep it simple and these loose maniacs will pay you. If your afriad to mix it up then either learn or dont play.
And im no superstar poker player but keeping it simple is the best place to start.

Here is an additional tip. Got a weak draw or the third button? Fire a miniraise. Now watch them call a big blind raise when they would have raised more due to having a legitimate hand. THIS ONLY WORKS AGAINST HORRIBLE OPPONENTS. Now you can outdraw them too :P Then bet strong when you have a strong hand (two pair matching both hole cards or an overpair) and they'll still call you. They won't even know the difference between your bets.

[Greedo017]

That's a good question. There are varying degrees of tightness of course. Perhaps where I play the game is just much looser. I typically play less hands than most of the people at the table. I definitely call less raises than others. But I try to mix it up so people can't get reads on me.

When I first started playing no limit, I played super tight - by the book. I see people play that way all the time. When they get the cards, they are superstars. When they don't, they lose. In general, they're so easy to play against, that I decided that I don't want to be that guy anymore.

You don't have to play 15% to win. if 50% of the people at the table see a flop, by all means, bump that up a little. but be smart with it. don't start limp/folding 28o. mixing it up doesn't really stop people from getting reads on you. calling stations read like blonde girls: everything needed to understand what's going on is right there, but you know they're just looking at the pictures. that's why playing tight works so well against them. its perfectly obvious what you're doing, yet they're too dumb to realize. I know it sounds boring, but you know deep down that its common sense that when someone doesn't fold, you can't bluff them.

And, about continuation bets. I will use them 95% of the time. I don't usually run across tables where its not a good move. If it got really bad though, and I was getting called down every time, I might stop. I do use them at Party 25NL - if that gives you any help. Against a tight table, I can play looser and raise junk from late position, knowing I can continuation bet out any callers on the flop. Against a loose table, I find its important to appear very tight and solid, this way even though you might kill some action sometimes, there's almost always some idiot to come out of the woods and pay you off, while in general your continuation bets have a higher chance of getting respect, and that's worth it to me. I <3 continuation bets.

[res1cue]

Need some advice on this.

When I was playing limit, I would always look for the calling stations. I would change tables multiples times just looking for them.

Now that I play no limit, I've realized that I lose the most money against loose players. Not the good kind either. I lose to beginners and calling stations. My bluffs just don't work against them.

Problem is that the table will drastically change to loose when one or two of these guys come to the table and increase the size of the pots.

Waiting for monster hands just totally screws up my game. I don't know how to play like that. Even premium cards miss flops and get outdrawn. How many flops do I pay to see to get monster hands?

I think maybe my bluffs aren't big enough to scare looser players. Or maybe I shouldn't bluff at all against them. Or maybe I should just change tables.

It's just so annoying because they're really pretty bad. They never fear getting outkicked and I can never tell if they're just calling with low pair, a draw, overcards, or a monster.

Against a good loose player, I don't have much of a problem. I can still bluff because he will read me as being tight. He knows what a scare card is.

Advice would be appreciated.

The key word in all of this is BLUFF!!!! You cannot, I repeat CANNOT bluff a beginner because he doesn't know what is happening.. Here is a word of advice that might save you some money. Pick your spots better to bluff. Bluff at the tight players and the good ones (in the appropriate time) because they know when to lay it down.

And by the way, no matter how much you bet into the donks, if they decide to call they will call you down. Dont waste your money on them.

later

[bair]

please quit using the term expected value outside of poker context

and im assuming you hate playing against people like this:
Table Table 35256 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 2: kgw37 ( $550 )
Seat 3: rdsandy ( $2715 )
Seat 4: jko1986 ( $2060 )
Seat 5: madduxman ( $1355 )
Seat 6: Rizzla024 ( $1320 )
Trny:13816743 Level:3
Blinds(25/50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to jko1986 [ Ah Qs ]
jko1986 raises [150].
madduxman calls [150].
Rizzla024 folds.
kgw37 folds.
rdsandy folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 6d, 7h, 5s ]
jko1986 bets [300].
madduxman calls [300].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7c ]
jko1986 bets [500].
madduxman calls [500].
** Dealing River ** [ Jh ]
jko1986 bets [500].
madduxman is all-In [405]
jko1986 shows [ Ah, Qs ] a pair of sevens.
madduxman shows [ Jd, Ad ] two pairs, jacks and sevens.
jko1986 wins 95 chips from side pot #1 with a pair of sevens.
madduxman wins 2785 chips from the main pot with two pairs, jacks and sevens.

[underminedsk]

why do you continuation bet all 3 streets out of position? If you ask me, thats just asking for major trouble.

[bair]

reads, and i dont consider it a continuation bet, its betting when i know i have the best hand. by the river he only had 450 left so i had no reason not to put him all in. was really just wondering if this was the type of players he was talking about

[Element187]

should have put him all in on the turn if your read was so dead on.. giving him cheap cards to beat you is a major no no.

[Checkways]

jko1986 shows [ Ah, Qs ] a pair of sevens.
madduxman shows [ Jd, Ad ] two pairs, jacks and sevens.
jko1986 wins 95 chips from side pot #1 with a pair of sevens.
madduxman wins 2785 chips from the main pot with two pairs, jacks and sevens.

Dude, that's f'n crazy. It's really rare that I see something like that. Damn.

[Checkways]

And, about continuation bets. I will use them 95% of the time. I don't usually run across tables where its not a good move. If it got really bad though, and I was getting called down every time, I might stop. I do use them at Party 25NL - if that gives you any help. Against a tight table, I can play looser and raise junk from late position, knowing I can continuation bet out any callers on the flop. Against a loose table, I find its important to appear very tight and solid, this way even though you might kill some action sometimes, there's almost always some idiot to come out of the woods and pay you off, while in general your continuation bets have a higher chance of getting respect, and that's worth it to me. I <3 continuation bets.

Good advice, thanks.

[Rondavu]

I used to lose money every week at my home game. It's a table of calling stations. One week I decide I'm going to min bet my draws (Top pair usually just calls), and bet hard on good hands. I decided I would NEVER continue at this table without hitting the flop hard. Yes you heard it, NEVER.

So I sit for 3 hours and lose 1 1/2 buy ins waiting for something to hit. Finally I hit a set. I turn the 3 bucks I have left into 15 in one hand. I quintripled up! Very next hand I get AK. K comes on flop, A on turn. Guess how much money was in my stack after the hand?

40 bucks

I bet $5 on the flop - 3 callers
I go all in for $10 on the turn - 1 caller

I busted two people. One guy had two pair A7, and the other called his last 5 bucks on a K 7 9 board holding 10 10.

Oh ya, and the blinds are 5¢ and 10¢

That means the guy with 10 10 called a 50xBB bet with the board beating him. That's brisk baby.

That's how you play against a loose table. You get payed off extremely on good hands, and you never bluff. If you never catch a hand then too f'ing bad, so sad.

[Drewbie]

I used to lose money every week at my home game. It's a table of calling stations. One week I decide I'm going to min bet my draws (Top pair usually just calls), and bet hard on good hands. I decided I would NEVER continue at this table without hitting the flop hard. Yes you heard it, NEVER.

So I sit for 3 hours and lose 1 1/2 buy ins waiting for something to hit. Finally I hit a set. I turn the 3 bucks I have left into 15 in one hand. I quintripled up! Very next hand I get AK. K comes on flop, A on turn. Guess how much money was in my stack after the hand?

40 bucks

I bet $5 on the flop - 3 callers
I go all in for $10 on the turn - 1 caller

I busted two people. One guy had two pair A7, and the other called his last 5 bucks on a K 7 9 board holding 10 10.

Oh ya, and the blinds are 5¢ and 10¢

That means the guy with 10 10 called a 50xBB bet with the board beating him. That's brisk baby.

That's how you play against a loose table. You get payed off extremely on good hands, and you never bluff. If you never catch a hand then too f'ing bad, so sad.

That's how I manage to make a decent profit playing 25-50NL on party.
Patience is a virtue when the game is that loose.
I lost 700$ while trying to learn hold em, because I was trying to make money too fast.
As I have read on countless other posts on this site, poker is a long term game. This site has improved my game exponentially and I am now benefitting greatly from this knowledge.

[Rondavu]

It's different for every situation. You can't camp against good players. Once you start reading your opponents and giving them false reads, a whole new dimension opens up for you.

I win a lot more money these days with weak hands that are barely ahead, weak hands where I represent strength, and no hand where my opponent is weak. That's my bread and butter. The steak is the monster that gets payed off because I present a loose image.

Calling tables are NOT hold em poker. They are ATM machines for the disciplined and aware player.

[Drewbie]

Calling tables are NOT hold em poker. They are ATM machines for the disciplined and aware player.

Amen, Brother, Amen

[Element187]

I used to lose money every week at my home game. It's a table of calling stations. One week I decide I'm going to min bet my draws (Top pair usually just calls), and bet hard on good hands. I decided I would NEVER continue at this table without hitting the flop hard. Yes you heard it, NEVER.

i was curious why i play online and profit, but when i have a home game with my friends i could never win .. one day i decided the same thing, no bluffing, show down good hands and see what happens.

my friends are maniacs, so i started playing 3 of a kind or bette ragainst (they would bet any pair real strong)

soon as i noticed what hands on average were being showndown the most, i decided to play hands stronger then that IE: 3 of a kind or better, and havent looked back since.

[Rondavu]

I was sitting at this same loose table with my Tight Aggressive friend to my left. I got AQ suited. I raised it up preflop to 5xBB and got 7 callers. He was the only one who folded. The flop comes out 4 K T with the 4 and T of my suit. It cheks to me and I bet 3xBB into a 35xBB pot. I show my friend my cards because he's out of the hand, and he whispers to me "You know the person with the king is just calling right now?" I said "Of course I do, but they're irrelevant to me since I'm drawing to a hand that will beat them and they don't want to protect their hand. Otherwise I think they're really nice people."

I said this loud enough for anyone to hear. Still I got 7 callers to my wimpy bet. I did the same on the turn and got the same result. The river brought my flush, I bet 4 bucks, and a guy called me with KT. I mean seriously dude. Talk about an asshat. I like the guy though. He's really good at Yatzee.

[Element187]

I was sitting at this same loose table with my Tight Aggressive friend to my left. I got AQ suited. I raised it up preflop to 5xBB and got 7 callers. He was the only one who folded. The flop comes out 4 K T with the 4 and T of my suit. It cheks to me and I bet 3xBB into a 35xBB pot. I show my friend my cards because he's out of the hand, and he whispers to me "You know the person with the king is just calling right now?" I said "Of course I do, but they're irrelevant to me since I'm drawing to a hand that will beat them and they don't want to protect their hand. Otherwise I think they're really nice people."

I said this loud enough for anyone to hear. Still I got 7 callers to my wimpy bet. I did the same on the turn and got the same result. The river brought my flush, I bet 4 bucks, and a guy called me with KT. I mean seriously dude. Talk about an asshat. I like the guy though. He's really good at Yatzee.

thats classic.

[Checkways]

I used to lose money every week at my home game. It's a table of calling stations. One week I decide I'm going to min bet my draws (Top pair usually just calls), and bet hard on good hands. I decided I would NEVER continue at this table without hitting the flop hard. Yes you heard it, NEVER.

i was curious why i play online and profit, but when i have a home game with my friends i could never win .. one day i decided the same thing, no bluffing, show down good hands and see what happens.

my friends are maniacs, so i started playing 3 of a kind or bette ragainst (they would bet any pair real strong)

soon as i noticed what hands on average were being showndown the most, i decided to play hands stronger then that IE: 3 of a kind or better, and havent looked back since.

Awesome story. Thanks.

[Checkways]

I was sitting at this same loose table with my Tight Aggressive friend to my left. I got AQ suited. I raised it up preflop to 5xBB and got 7 callers. He was the only one who folded. The flop comes out 4 K T with the 4 and T of my suit. It cheks to me and I bet 3xBB into a 35xBB pot. I show my friend my cards because he's out of the hand, and he whispers to me "You know the person with the king is just calling right now?" I said "Of course I do, but they're irrelevant to me since I'm drawing to a hand that will beat them and they don't want to protect their hand. Otherwise I think they're really nice people."

I said this loud enough for anyone to hear. Still I got 7 callers to my wimpy bet. I did the same on the turn and got the same result. The river brought my flush, I bet 4 bucks, and a guy called me with KT. I mean seriously dude. Talk about an asshat. I like the guy though. He's really good at Yatzee.

LOL! Did you call him an asshat there? Or did you wait until he kicked your butt at Yatzee?