Inside the mind of the "always aggressive"ring plr

[Robert Tiltin']

Title is: "Inside the mind of the "always aggressive"ring game player"

I'd like to hear some techniques from a person who aggressively bets in lower-staked ring games.

My tourney play is aggressive, but that's because I feel the need to make moves because of creeping blinds. I do pretty well there.

However, my low-stakes ring game technique is lacking.

(Low stakes being .05/.10 tables)

Why do I care about "technique" @ low stakes? Because I like experience. I've played max .25/.50 stakes, but I don't like to stay there, win or lose. I feel that I should be able to earn my bankroll @ lower stakes to foot my multitable tourney fees and to get me into the higher levels, without "buying" my way there.

Anyways.. Here it goes:

There are quite a few people I have played with and noted and they basically raise or bet very often. It throws me off... I don't know how to say it..

I play really tight. Chucking stuff like A5o even in late position. My tightness is because I don't feel the "need to play" anything, because of the lack of increasing blinds.

Yet, when I tangle with these people when I have a hand, I often get sucked out because they prety much call anything - or - I'll leave a pot with TPLK, often feeling like I'm folding the better hand.

I'm going to try going the "really aggressive" route for a few days. At the low-stakes, it's not close to risky for my BR..

But - I don't want to be "wreckless" even though these people seem VERY reckless and it seems to work against me (and especially others) sometimes.

So, what's going on in these guys heads and hands?

Do they autoraise QJo preflop in any position?

Is A(anything) something they raise also preflop?

I see their hands sometimes, because they'll get a short stacked tiltomatic to raise their preflop and frankly, there's no way I would even bother playing some of the stuff that these guys raise..


They seem to chuck out pot-sized feeler bets and then bet then next card pretty heavy, even when they get a call. They'll take the pot down, but you gotta wonder if they had anything, even middle pair..

Jeeze.. I don't even know what to really ask specifically. I'm just saying that these people play hands like it's head-up @ the end of a tourney. Anything seems good to them.

My patience pays off, and I'll often take one of these types down, but only after like an hour of sitting with them. And you know the deal, having monster hand against a betting and calling stations and having it blown out because they do not play pot odds - they just simply call if there's a "chance" regardless of how much they pay.

My biggest leak involves these type of people. The leak is that I'll get shoved off of a pot when I feel like I'm almost the winner, or I'll call the preflop raise, hit nothing at all but wtill have high overcards and the odds do not justify me calling.

I do not feel that this is sound strategy. I feel like they may steal a lot of blinds and get the lucky big pot suckout, or they may have legitimately great cards and the opponent doesn't beleive them, but over time, I gotta think that they will do big dumps vs. tight players w/ monsters.

What do you guys think.. ?? Is there anyone here that approaches these low stakes tables this way? What are you thinking when you raise .50 w/ k6s and the flop comes aj3 rainbow and you're betting like you hit top pair?

Thanks!

Disclaimer: I understand that low-stakes goes hand in hand with "terrible" play because of the very low risk involved - but I've seen this play on the .25/.50 tables, too - but mostly from Big Stack Jack.

[dalecooper]

Check-raise/re-raise/all-in. That's all you need to remember. If you hit a real hand against someone who is constantly betting and raising, and mostly showing down mediocre hands, you need to get all their money as quickly as possible. But you need to quickly differentiate this type from the tight/aggressive, the person who bets and raises a lot and usually shows down the goods. That player is a good player, playing the optimal way, and you don't want to get into a competition with them.

[Robert Tiltin']

Thanks, Dale.

I feel that Im a T/A player in tourneys, but in ring games I'm tight, but ... passive, maybe?

Post Flop: The check-raise.. That seems to get them, but am I correct in saying only do that when I have a hand.. ?? It seems like it's pretty few and far between that I get that opp. and when I do, they do usually fold.. If I get re-raised decently big, however I fold - which feels leaky to me, but again - I play patient because I want to be capitalizing on their mistakes, not them on mine by thinking they're bluffing and getting burninated.

I don't feel the need to "check raise because I think they're just trying to buy".. I just can't do that, yet. I am going to try it one day of playing, just to get some info, but I bet it will cost me (albiet not much).

These guys I have noted aren't T/A players.. They are borderline maniacs because when I do see their cards, they are... well.. manically sucktastic.

[dalecooper]

You generally want to check-raise with a strong hand, yes. If they are as sucktastic as you say, be prepared to go to the felt with any good hand. Top pair top kicker as your minimum starting requirements, but preferably two pair or better.

[Greedo017]

You say you're playing tight. what kinds of hands are you folding to? would you fold ak/aq/aj if an a flopped and he bet hard? reach down, locate testicles, use testicles.

people who are really aggressive like that in .5/.10 games are playing crap. most probably just about any hand, i'm sure they'll fold the random q3 if they're not in the mood or get a bad vibe, but i've seen people who raised 5xbb, consistently, with Kxos. keep in mind two things.

1. depending on the flop, tptk vs. just them means you're way ahead of them. play it like you know you've got the best hand. push if you have to.
2. maniacs get good hands too. you will lose to some maniac who thinks he's god's gift sometime, and it will suck. but if you bet and are aggressive, you will make these people fold, a lot, after they've already bet significant money. and if they don't fold, they've called, and you're probably going to end up destacking them anyway. don't overestimate.

[Robert Tiltin']

Greedo - No.. Not that tight.. I've been raised while I had top pair only to see the end and dude had a 4 kicker.. rofl.. I know better than to get away from something like that..

"maniacs get good hands too.."

Yeah.. Tell me about it. I guess the best I could do is post some hostories and what I was thinking w/ the info I had at the time.

I run into these people a lot because I'm actually looking for people w/ this playing style as they pay off the best, but jeeze.. I mean, I feel like I'll play one worthwhile hand and score big against them, and then comes me vs. the same thing with a suckout result (me losing).

See - I can rationalize "folding" as much as I do, because I'm usually not into the pot for much. Typically if I'm big in the pot, it's exactly where I want to be with the cards I want.

It bugs me more than it costs me over time, but if I can understand the rationale of their playing, I can defuse it.

They play position well, though.. That's the edge they always have.. Never let a round check for free, etc.. Especially from late pos.

I just can't fathom playing ring games this way, but I guess they look at it this way: The bet is less costly than a call and easier to get away from because it usually takes more "mojo" to call than it does to bet, esp. when betting in late pos.

[Robert Tiltin']

These people are very unpredictable.. But not in a good way.. More like a retard kicking a soccer ball kinda way.

[ilikeaces86]

I am a pusher I always try to run people over

[Robert Tiltin']

I am a pusher I always try to run people over

With what, though.. Position? Cards? Or do you jst say *uck it and go at anytime if you have people that fold a lot.

I know it varies depending on the players, but like how do you respond to a push back..

What's your criteria needed to raise 4-5xBB? Mine would be pretty high hands.. Just curious as to what you're pushing with..

Thanks!

[ilikeaces86]

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...pic.php?t=7251

[hankr]

Your saga sounds much like mine... which I've detailed elsewhere and won't repeat here. And my TOTAL online experience is only 2+ months at 2 hrs a day, so we're not talking a large sample size here.

But I tried this site's tight-aggressive approach in these micro-limit games with only modest success.

I think the aggressive part is easy and you probably do too... if you got 'em bet 'em... and bet 'em big. I'm sure you see players calling big bets and all-ins all the time with total crap.... so step up to the buffet and enjoy the feast. You don't always need to push all-in, but if your current inclination is to bet 50 cents... throw in a buck instead.

You'll get rivered two out of five hands by someone, but the other three times you'll win big... and be amazed that they stayed with you with un-improved Pocket Jacks with an Ace and Queen on the board (which you paired) and all-the-time calling your big bets or making their own big bets.

The problem I had was with the "tight" part. My target for about a month was seeing 25% of the flops in games where the norm is probably 50% or higher. It just didn't work for me... it kept me out of too many winning opportunities. I won, but ever so slowly for small amounts.

I have since relaxed my flop-standards and now target 35% of flops seen. This is still real tight in these games, but has given me notably better results. I relaxed (this site's) starting-hand standards by also playing:
- suited connectors 45 and higher
- unsuited connectors 78 and higher
- A6o, A7o, A8o and higher in later positions (but laying down the paired As against any strength, maybe 3 BBs or higher)

The aggressive part (betting / calling / raising) more-often for higher amounts will create bigger bankroll swings. In a bad session I may buy-in 3, even 4 times. But an hour after that 4th buy-in, its amazing how often I've climbed back to even or better. In the long run, you'll get more than your share of the money.

Your opponents have not read the book, and will not play like the book says good players should play. That's your advantage.

[Ayce]

At those limits with the kinds of players you get there weak tight will win you a lot of money. You can take their money slowly simply by only coming in with premium hands and then calling. You can take their money fast by pushing your monsters. Forget about deception other than check raising them, if they start folding to your check raises start throwing in the odd bluff, but if they never fold you never bluff.

[Robert Tiltin']

I hover around 20% for flop %.. So it's actually around the same as my tourney play..

I waited for over one hour to nuke this one idiot and he dumped to everyone but me after all that time.. I just didnt have the goods when we played or he dropped out

Anyways.. I think I need to try a lesson in catharsis and dedicated 10-20 $ to role-playing as one of these fools.. Just as a learning experience..

I do not think it is a winning strategy, long or short term, but I think I will be "that guy" for one night..

[Crunch]

These people are very unpredictable.. But not in a good way.. More like a retard kicking a soccer ball kinda way.

LOL

[Robert Tiltin']

Ok.. Experiment over.. I didn't do soo hot playing recklessly stupid.. (omg! What a surprise)..

I felt like I was playing in the Special Olympics of Poker

I'll stick to my slow formula of smart play and patience, coupled w/ aggression when the cards are there for me..

[Greedo017]

i found that after i played at low tables for a while, i learned how to handle the total maniacs you find there. just keep playing back at them solidly and you'll learn what works and what doesn't.

[bdawg56kg]

Hey man I play with a group of friends every weekend that are just like u described. The strategy I have devised is basically to camp out for monster hands. Limp with Axs, pocket pairs, and hands like KJ, KQ, AJ, AQ, and even AK. Some may not agree with this, but the reason I do this is if u raise with a hand like AK and miss the flop entirely, the follow up bet is either not noticed or respected, and they call down with their gutshots, middle pairs, and TP no kicker. If I hit top pair or something I will bet big or check raise if I think someone will bet. All bluffs and semibluffs are out the window. If you're not getting the cards there's nothing you can do. I have come to find out that I will usually make a small profit every time, or a big one if I'm catching cards. If I lose, it'll be almost 100% bad beats or hands like KK vs. AA all in preflop. It is VERY VERY boring but I have found it the best way to deal with these fish.

[hankr]

Ok.. Experiment over.. I didn't do soo hot playing recklessly stupid.. (omg! What a surprise)..

Well... now I'm curious and want details of your "fish-for-a-day" adventure.
- How much did you lose?
- How long did it last?
- What did you learn?

[Robert Tiltin']

Ok.. Experiment over.. I didn't do soo hot playing recklessly stupid.. (omg! What a surprise)..

Well... now I'm curious and want details of your "fish-for-a-day" adventure.
- How much did you lose?
- How long did it last?
- What did you learn?

I tried 2 $10 sessions.

It lasted about 10 minutes, max.

I learned that you cannot bluff someone off 10Js, QKs, A6o. Those were some of the hands that I lost to. People held those through the preflop betting of 2-4x BB. 6xBB+ did not get much action at all. No curiosity calls there, but blinds were so low, it would be more profitable pushing carts @ Walmart than to steal blinds at the low stakes.

I don't think I played totally outside of myself. It was hard to go against instincts in some cases. I wish I could have detached more. I needed to raise every hand, card indifferent, to try what I wanted to. I didn't manage to be super-aggressive, more like just plain "stupid" play.

I learned that solid play is good and you must bet when you have a hand. Raise when you have a hand. Do not raise the turn after you've raised the river. Do not push mid pair with high kick. The latter I knew, but I made calls and bets I wouldn't in my normal play.

Some of those things...

Shortly after this thread, I took a chance and moved to bigger stakes: .25/.50 then .50/1.00 - My BR (at the time) couldn't weather one bad day, so I played solid and folded what I thought were good folds with no regrets. I would say that I learned that higher blinds makes people play a little better. They're less apt to get in with sub-par hands.

Beware of short-stackers, min buy-ins @ higher stakes.. They are almost always hit-and-run people who raise pre-flop and then 4x raise on the flop. If everyone folds, they leave. If they lose, they leave.

I learned that stupid aggression is more prevalent @ lower stakes, because the crazy players are typically frustrated / tilted higher-stakes people with low funds.

I did well and I'm still holding solid at the higher stakes, I think I'll stay because my earned BR can weather the swings now.

That's not to say there's no maniacs @ the higher stakes.. I think they do not bother me there, because I don't think about it as much and it's easier to walk away. I may play a few hands per hour (deja vu - my fundamental strat), but I'll push it when it's on, because I'm in with something good.

Above all, I am firmly convinced that tourney play has nothing to do with ring game play, in terms of gaining experience. I could be wrong on this and there could be a million parallels, in some people's eyes, but I have no problem separating my styles. Patient play @ ring games, cutthroat @ the tourneys in the later rounds.

Anyways.. there's a little dump of stuff.. It's probably common knowledge to most..

I will try the maniac thing again a few times, but only to mess with someone who is a rampant low-stakes table bully.

In all, I learned to trust my instintcs: That fundamentally and statistically solid play is the winning combo, with adjustments to table environments and players. Rather than bend with the table (and possibly break), flow with the table.

[studboyjoe]

Maniacs like this decrease my enjoyment level at the table and tempt me
to become more maniacal if they are being successful. The check-raise and re-raise strategy is useful here, but only if you have a hand, otherwise you have to play tighter than usual against these guys. If they are making you crazy with suck-outs, etc., move to another table that is more sane.

At this level, however, there is probably a maniac at every table.