RE: No money in micros thread

[Deucebag]

I see a few hands where people are 4 or 5 bet shoving with AKs. Is that a +ev play? Wouldn't you expect to be called with better leaving you on the lower end of a flip at best?

[MadMojoMonkey]

... ummm ...

Some villains stack off with Axs pre-flop, and some 3-bet and 4-bet extremely light.

Sometimes a normally solid player will take a bad beat and then spew for an orbit or more.

Sometimes Hero is quite certain by bet-sizing that Villain is not holding KK+, and the worst case scenario is a flip.

... just to name a few ...

[agnesamurphy]

As MMM is saying, it really depends on the player 4-betting and 5-betting. Some are capable of doing that with AJ or QQ and less, of which AK has great equity against. Others would only do that w/ AA or KK, in which AK is in rough shape.

It also could be +ev if you know that you can get a Villain to fold queens, jacks, or tens. In that case, you're playing the player instead of the hand.

[daviddem]

That is also a "balance" play, meaning if people know you are capable of stacking off with AK, they are more likely to call your shoves later when you have AA or KK.

Or in other words, if people know you only ever 4/5 bet shove with AA or KK, they are not going to call you with worse.

Also when you 4/5 bet shove AK, you are blocking AA and KK and so there are only 6 AA/KK combos out there vs which you are a significant underdog.

Obviously, this does not mean you have to 4/5 bet shove your AK vs people who only 3 bet AA and KK...

[spoonitnow]

The topic of whether to 3-bet/get it in with AK pre-flop is a neat example of when you can get your opponent to make mistakes by folding the wrong hands and calling with the wrong hands. For example, if your opponent folds 22 and calls AQ, then they are both mistakes.

[jippo88]

Interesting that you mention folding small-mid pairs spoon. I was reading somewhere about 4bet jamming middle pairs against aggressive 3bettors, especially from LP vs blinds who resteal a lot. What are your thoughts on this? I didn't clearly understand the purpose but if a player is getting it in with AK/AQ/Axs type hands then we do have pretty decent equity i guess, but what about the instances when we run into the top of their range? I'm not mathematically minded enough to understand the EV of this particular spot.

[spoonitnow]

Sounds dumb to me.

[Stacks]

Sounds dumb to me.

Idk. Might not be that bad. Assuming 100bb stacks, 3x -> 10x -> shove, and a calling range of AQ+, TT+, villain will need to fold something like 65% of the time.

Not great calling a wider 3bet range with small pps. And in the realm of mistakes, any hand he folds to the shove is a mistake given his equity. Whereas, if we 4bet to a normal size, he will correctly 5b shove some hands he would incorrectly fold to the shove.

Given his calling range is 62 (4.7%) combos, he would need to have 171 (12.9%) combos in his entire 3betting range.

So yeah, I think it could be okay. I would think it's best to 4bet bluff to a normal size most of the time, unless villain is 5bet bluffing often. In which case, with a small pair, again you would rather him incorrectly fold hands that he would be correctly stacking off with when 5b bluffing.

[spoonitnow]

So we're hoping Villain is folding 2/3 of the time so we can make a 0EV shove in a way that makes it very easy to remember our play and figure out our range so that we can get exploited out the wazoo. Seems legit.

[Carroters]

@OP It's pretty crucial to remember we're not just shoving or 4 betting into a non existent pot, but often a sizable one, therefore even if we're only getting it in as a slight dog, it can still be very profitable due to the dead money and the fact that villain has 3-bet or 4-bet/folding range.

[Icanhastreebet]

So we're hoping Villain is folding 2/3 of the time so we can make a 0EV shove in a way that makes it very easy to remember our play and figure out our range so that we can get exploited out the wazoo. Seems legit.

4b shoving is a pretty std adjustment v relentless 3bettors especially HU. I can remember when sauce played isildur and he started to 3b shove small pairs and isildur started to call basically everything that was a flip v small pairs and sauce proceeded to 4b shove super wide but purely for value. Etc. But I have no clue why we are talking about this topic in BC where the most you will ever see some1 3b is like 4%.

[seven-deuce]

But I have no clue why we are talking about this topic in BC where the most you will ever see some1 3b is like 4%.

Negative. I've encountered a number of relentless 3betters at 10nl. In some sessions people have 3bet like 90% of my opens to $0.70.

[spoonitnow]

4b shoving is a pretty std adjustment v relentless 3bettors especially HU. I can remember when sauce played isildur and he started to 3b shove small pairs and isildur started to call basically everything that was a flip v small pairs and sauce proceeded to 4b shove super wide but purely for value. Etc. But I have no clue why we are talking about this topic in BC where the most you will ever see some1 3b is like 4%.

Clearly relevant.

[Deucebag]

@OP It's pretty crucial to remember we're not just shoving or 4 betting into a non existent pot, but often a sizable one, therefore even if we're only getting it in as a slight dog, it can still be very profitable due to the dead money and the fact that villain has 3-bet or 4-bet/folding range.

I guess this is as good of a justification as any.