5NL - set on uber drawy board!

[Petulie]

Another difficult hand today, this time at 5NL. Villain is 48/29 over 107 hands, no notes on the guy.

So mega drawy board that only got drawier.

I c-bet flop and turn nearer pot size to discourage draws from calling. Is this right? Should sizing be bigger? I'm assuming I can safely fold to any raises.

I was really unhappy with the river as villain's range contains lots of suited connectors and probably some Tx or even 5x spaz (amazing the things some of these fish call down with!), so I figured smallish value bet. I was worried villain may shove over my river bet and I wouldn't know whether I'd have the equity to call it down as I still don't have a feel for that yet.

Really stumped with this one, including putting villain on a range. Help please!


$0.02/$0.05 No Limit Holdem
4 Players

Stacks:
CO Harrylux ($2.35)
BTN toporez ($5)
SB Petulie ($13.06)
BB RONSRJ#1 ($3.06)

Pre-Flop: ($0.07, 4 players) Petulie is SB
2 folds, Petulie raises to $0.15, RONSRJ#1 calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.30, 2 players)
Petulie bets $0.25, RONSRJ#1 calls $0.25

Turn: ($0.80, 2 players)
Petulie bets $0.65, RONSRJ#1 calls $0.65


River: ($2.10, 2 players)
Petulie bets $0.85, RONSRJ#1 calls $0.85

[Nekrogovner]

48/29 you can pretty much put on ATC pre minus total garbage, but imo those guys pick hands based on something like:"omg 26 of spades i kinda likes it so I minraise". Since you didn't tell us what is villain capable of I will assume he has enough brain to continue with an actual made hand or a draw.
So on flop his calling range would be something like: AdX, KdX, T9, 56, 67, 98. I kinda discount two pair and sets or overpairs, I think he would go berserk with those. Turn completes 56 and T9 straights. River completes potential AT or A5 straights.
I like river bet, if he made a passive line with straight tough luck, but at least you saved yourself some cents.

[Londinium]

Given the type of player you're against and the board texture, was check/calling down to the river not a viable option? Or at the very least checking one of the streets to see what happens?

[Petulie]

Thanks for the response everyone!

Given the type of player you're against and the board texture, was check/calling down to the river not a viable option? Or at the very least checking one of the streets to see what happens?

I didn't like checking as 1) I'm much less comfortable calling bets in spots like this than I am making them and I didn't want to lose out on value; and 2) I would lose initiative and again potentially lose value.

In terms of sizing, totally right - I don't want draws to fold as obviously I'll be making monies when they don't hit, my mistake. So yea, I understand about giving them the wrong price. I tend to shy away from overbetting pot but I'll keep this in mind for similar spots in future.

Villain's range - defo mega wide. I just found it hard to narrow it down with each action and figure out what villain was calling with. Really appreciate what you guys have said, I'm going to have a sit down and go through street by street and work out calling ranges now I've got some guidelines.

[Vinland]

overbet flop, bet closer to pot on turn and shove river if you have less than a psb. If he's that bad, he has more than Tx in his range here.

As played bet $1.25 on river

[Carroters]

Villains range is so damn wide here it's ridiculous. He probably calls flop and turn with like any 7 or better, any reasonable diamond draw, a shit load of pair + diamond draws, two pairs, endless shit. On the river he'll have plenty of random 5x and Tx but also loads of 2 pair, and one pair. if you bet river, you need hands like 9x 8x to call here for it to be +EV, since the 2 pair combos are gonna be outweighed by the random straights and more rarely flushes. Therefore, you need to make your bet small like you have done given how terrifying this board is even to a fish. I'm not sure what sizing is optimal here without doing a huge huge stove with the widest range ever that would take 6 hours, but I think your sizing looks good. $1.25 seems like too much because as soon as you hit that inflection point where he folds 1 pair, your bet becomes bad.

I'd defo bet flop and turn a little bigger here, slight overbets, are probably god given this guy just wont fold so many hands on this board. You do indeed want to bet big on these board textures, but it's not so much to "discourage draws from calling" it's more that you want to prevent them from calling profitably, and force them to make a mistake if they call, basically you want them to call for then incorrect price you offer as they so often will.

[Londinium]

Petulie - I can understand what you mean but you say you don't know what villain has that he is calling you with so then (and this is where I have issues) what's the reason for each bet? Value for idiot holdings, to create incorrect odds for people chasing the flush/straight or is it a bet that's trying to do both?

[Carroters]

The flop and turn are very very standard value bets. We get value from both draws and made hands and made hands + draws. Checking either flop or turn is a disaster since we fail to build a pot when we're way ahead of villains continuing range and give free cards so that he gets to play all the million draws he has more profitably.

The river is a thin less standard value bet, but prolly fine if it's small enough for this dumb ass villain to still call with one pair hands.

[daven]

villain is likely to call the same hands for a pot-sized bet on flop and turn vs the bet sizing you chose

i like river sizing for the value you extract from his 3rd pair + busted flush draw type of hands.

[Petulie]

Petulie - I can understand what you mean but you say you don't know what villain has that he is calling you with so then (and this is where I have issues) what's the reason for each bet? Value for idiot holdings, to create incorrect odds for people chasing the flush/straight or is it a bet that's trying to do both?

I meant I wasn't able to put villain on a defined range. I knew he could be calling me with plenty worse eg 22, 2x, 7x, 8x, fds, sds and then some random spaz, and given his looseness I assumed these weaker hands comprised more of his range than the ones that actually beat me. Hence the value bets. Fish at these stakes can easily call down 3 streets with random Q3o even, they're that stationy. (Ok, maybe slight overexaggeration but you get my point.) At the same time I also wanted to create incorrect odds for chasers, yes, so both.

The river messed me up because now the random Tx and 5x also beat me, reducing the number of hands I can gain value from, so thin value bet also as a blocker to prevent me having to c/f. b/f seemed the best option.

[Londinium]

Yeah, you're right. I keep forgetting the stats you've got on the guy and (as long as I've used pokerstove correctly) if we say his range is 50% of his hands then you're a big favourite - 67%.

[rpm]

looks pretty good to me. i'd go bigger on flop and turn because it probably doesnt weaken villain's calling range much, if at all. and we dominate that range. as played i like the river sizing.

[Alexos]

Seems like a common mentality on these boards is if we don't know what to do - block bet.

This bet seems ridiculous to me, you're not 50% ahead if he calls. Just check and decide.

[Petulie]

Seems like a common mentality on these boards is if we don't know what to do - block bet.

This bet seems ridiculous to me, you're not 50% ahead if he calls. Just check and decide.

It wasn't actually a matter of not knowing what to do when placing the blocking bet. I just didn't know what I would do if he shoved, or at least I would be in doubt as to what the right action would be.

I placed the blocking bet because, as suggested by the name, it prevents him betting missed draws and other air thus forcing me to fold - when villain bets in this spot I'm certainly not 50% ahead, whereas he may be calling me with loads of pair and two pair combos, maybe even worse given how bad he is. Betting was way better than c/f'ing.

[Alexos]

It wasn't actually a matter of not knowing what to do when placing the blocking bet. I just didn't know what I would do if he shoved, or at least I would be in doubt as to what the right action would be.

I placed the blocking bet because, as suggested by the name, it prevents him betting missed draws and other air thus forcing me to fold - when villain bets in this spot I'm certainly not 50% ahead, whereas he may be calling me with loads of pair and two pair combos, maybe even worse given how bad he is. Betting was way better than c/f'ing.

your reasoning is wrong because if he's betting air and other draws, just c/c happily. Especially these fish will bet like 1/3 pot giving you great odds to call here.

it's hard for him to have much worse here, you block 8s, theres a straight on board and a flush, you want him to call you with a pair only? just c/c or c/f

[Petulie]

your reasoning is wrong because if he's betting air and other draws, just c/c happily. Especially these fish will bet like 1/3 pot giving you great odds to call here.

it's hard for him to have much worse here, you block 8s, theres a straight on board and a flush, you want him to call you with a pair only? just c/c or c/f

These guys also tend to be mega stationy, so yea, won't surprise me at all if he calls me with just a pair or even Adx busto fd.

It's probably really close tbh. I'm more comfortable with making a small bet in this spot than I am calling one, so b/f > c/f or c/c imo.

[Alexos]

These guys also tend to be mega stationy, so yea, won't surprise me at all if he calls me with just a pair or even Adx busto fd.

It's probably really close tbh. I'm more comfortable with making a small bet in this spot than I am calling one, so b/f > c/f or c/c imo.

it's really not close unless he calls naked Ad and stuff, and he'd prob bluff that anyways. These guys are dumb enough to either bluff shove over your blocking bet, or bet 1/5th pot with air. Betting seems awful any way you wanna look at it on this board.

[Carroters]

Huge tards at these stakes will shrug call with top pair, 2nd pair and two pair here all day provided they get an awesome price. Could easily see us being +EV vs his betting range if he calls with these hands. I'd maybe b/f even less than this given the texture as then it's more likely he just shrug flats 9x 8x and two pair where as if we check he prolly spazzes these hands a bit more often - depends how retarded he is. If he isn't a tard I'd c/f to any reasonably sized bet.

[Hoopy]

I c-bet flop and turn nearer pot size to discourage draws from calling. Is this right? Should sizing be bigger? I'm assuming I can safely fold to any raises.

Just remember that we want to get value from draws calling. Sizing can probably be pot or larger. Depends on pot odds but our equity vs his range is generally good (even against a made flush) on the flop. If he raised small I'd call and draw to the full house, vs a big raise I'd ship it with these stacks. Unlikely to fol this hand though.

I'd check and decide on the river (though probably fold), betting seems -EV unless he is a total station and even then it's thin.

[Carroters]

*+EV vs his calling range I meant to say

[Alexos]

and if u insist on betting, bet a bit smaller then 35c or something.

edit: thought 8 was the toppest pair on board, making a bet 'less bad' but still not the best play imo. If you had 99 a bet would be pretty bad now he really can't call with anything!

[Carroters]

Yeah think it's a bit big but the thought process is headed the right way. My girl got some srs sizing skills for a 10NL player imo.