raising versus shoving with draw?

[littleogre]

Ok i've been wondering about something ok lets say we semi bluff bet a draw on the flop or turn. Lets also say if we raise we will be commited because the stacks are such that even if villan shoves we are geting proper odds to call. In that spot would a shove be better then a raise.

[sarbox68]

I'm confused... if you're semi-bluffing by betting the flop or turn, who are you raising?

[spoonitnow]

Usually yes.

[littleogre]

I'm confused... if you're semi-bluffing by betting the flop or turn, who are you raising?

sorry for the time being just forget the raising part. was thinking about 2 differnt situation when i wrote the post. For now lets assume our choices are bet the standard 3/4 pot or shove. Lets also assume that a bet commites to our draw. I want to know when it is better ev to just shove?

[sarbox68]

If you're committed to semi-bluffing and the semi-bluff commits you, then I don't know why you wouldn't shove to maximize FE. Only thing I can think of is if you flop the draw plus something else (top/middle pair, OCs, combo draw) and, based on reads and outs v. their range, you'd rather get some value out of them on the flop and then cram the turn. But I'm not sure if that's part of your question or not....

[wellrounded08]

I'm going to ask a rather dumbed down related question.
If we've got say for mathmatical purposes, 48% equity in a hand, and FE will push it over, that's when we want to shove?
Where-as if we've got say 52%+ equity(a combo draw), we want to bet/raise/reraise as needed? Or is this situation, and sometimes a shove?

[sarbox68]

I'm going to ask a rather dumbed down related question.
If we've got say for mathmatical purposes, 48% equity in a hand, and FE will push it over, that's when we want to shove?
Where-as if we've got say 52%+ equity(a combo draw), we want to bet/raise/reraise as needed? Or is this situation, and sometimes a shove?

My frequently wrong 2 cents? If I don't have a made hand (draw only, like the combo draw...) then I prolly still want the benefit of some FE 'cause any betting is still technically a semi-bluff. And if the Tu bricks you completely, your equity is likely to drop -- possible tank against their range.

If I have 52% equity with, say, a top or second pair + a draw, where my made hand is ahead of a chunk of their range by itself, I may not want to fold them out on the flop.

So much of this is SPR dependent. Shoving 80bb into a 12bb pot is IMHO usually a horrible idea, as you'll fold out anything that you beat, lose the oppty to extract value from worst hands, and get called by the sh!t that's likely to cream you. In OPs original question, this semi-bluff pot-commits him anyway, so he's going all-in... It's really just a now or later, and the now maximizes his FE.

If I'm way off here, I'm sure someone else will tell you...

[wellrounded08]

I see what your saying. 52% is fine, but even better w/ FE.

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[bjsaust]

How about betting a different amount that doesnt commit you?

[loktakwah]

I think in general if your hand doesnt' have much showdown value, then yes shoving is better than raising. You dont' want to let your opponent think he has any fold equity.

[Fnord]

It depends on how much money is in the pot. I generally like to make a big raise of such a size that I'm confortable playing two pair and sets the same way.

When there is a lot of money behind (10+ SPR) you're generally better off flatting and playing poker on later streets.

[littleogre]

ty to all for the helpful replies