Should you ever fold KK PF in low limits?

[weezie]

Earlier tonight I was reraised while holding KK pf so I raised back, and decided to push after getting raised again. The guy turned over AA which held and he won.

Then a few hours later I limp / raised my KK PF and a guy raised again and I pushed, he called with JJ (which ended up cracking KK but thats beside the point)

What I'm saying is at low limits like this (25NL), is it -EV to never fold KK PF? I mean against a virtual unknown is it worth taking the risk when they could very well be playing with QQ or JJ?

[bigspenda73]

I never fold it. I remember twice in one session I was dealt KK with 100bb stacks and got it all-in PF after 3-4 raises. One time the guy had AA BUT the other time the guy had 55. That was all I needed to know.

[jameseyb]

No. I never fold KK PF. It's just a personal thing, but the chances are that you are going to beat whoever decides to call you (apart from Aces) so you should always keep it in play.

Hell, last night I had KK cracked by queens. No great shakes. I know that the other times I'll take all his money home with me.

[dsmrolla06]

You need to have really really strong evidence to fold KK pf at 25NL. I mean like him actually showing you aces...

[Pelion]

I hardly ever fold KK preflop and never against an unknown.

I did once fold them preflop at 10NL against a guy I had alot of hands on. He almost never raised before the flop and then re-reraised me so I dumped it. He showed me AA.

Most of the time you arent going to be anywhere near as sure as you need to be.

[sejje]

I folded them once 200BB deep at mid limits against a good player.

All the other times I've paid off AA. One time, I paid off AA six times in one night with KK. That was quite some fun.

[XTR1000]

I´m nearly always paying off AA. below 100nl your good laydowns won´t make up for the bad ones.

[bode]

the only time i would ever even consider it is if someone w/ a PFR of 3/4 4bet me AI. And even that would be tough at the lowers limits.

[AHiltz]

If you have a HUD running, and the nit has only raised like 5 hands in the last 500 or so, and all of a sudden he's 3/4 betting you pf, then yes, I fold KK without a second thought.

[deacon_bluez]

One of the few things in my notes on opponents that I've been disciplined enough to type in is what they go all in on.

If my notes say: "all in 88 AQs TT 55" I definitely call. Useful data.

If they say "all in AA AA AA" I fold. I've done it maybe half a dozen times.

If I don't have any notes or reads, I would probably always call an all in.

[Chopper]

folding at this level is -EV. remember, you still crack those aces one in five times, and you gain a stack when you do.

now, all you have to do is make up for the other four times when against QQ, JJ, AK, etc. i think the choice is obvious. too many times you think its gotta be aces, its not.

if sammy farha cant fold KK against barry greenstein, what makes you think you should against a 25 donkey?

[sejje]

if sammy farha cant fold KK against barry greenstein, what makes you think you should against a 25 donkey?

You do realize that not only does greenstein have a very loose, fast image, but also that farha cant fold crap, right?

But I agree that you shouldnt fold KK.

[Vrax]

if sammy farha cant fold KK against Barry Greenstein, what makes you think you should against a 25 donkey?

Image, reads, stacks, preflop betting, everything.

25 donkeys don't 3bet light, 4bet shove AKish hands when they feel they have equity edge, and they hardly think beyond 1st level. Sammy played laggy game and Barry was definitely capable of bombing that preflop without AA.

There ARE actually some nitty winners on low stakes, who play ABCish poker, they 3bet/push AA and smoothcall KK-, and they are NOT capable of making such a deep moves as Barry's/Sammy shoves with air/draw/whatever on HSP. If someone has confident reads, he should make use of it.

[Chopper]

you guys arent comparing barry greenstein and gus hanson as the same type of player are you? to me, gus is loose and fast. i see barry as more of a dan harrington type. from what i've seen, barry tightens up significantly when at a table with negreanu or estfandiari or hanson or matasow. those guys play a much looser/faster game than barry.

and when barry shoves something pf in a 100k cash game, i doubt it's going to be 57s (something very likely to have sammy dominated for sure), and i'm pretty sure that he's not trying to steal the blinds. and i am pretty sure that sammy knew that, too.

but the point is, if the biggest of the big arent afraid of AA when they hold KK (they are still trying to get it in), then, neither should a 25 player.

maybe i havent watched enough, but from what i've seen, i would hardly call barry a lag. more like a solid tag...yet capable of doing some goofy shit, every once in awhile.

[Vrax]

you guys arent comparing Barry Greenstein and gus hanson as the same type of player are you?

Exactly, that's the problem with that kind of comparison.

Going 100BB with KK PF in low stakes game is good move more often than not. But doing this "because Sammy never folds KK" is absurd.

[Reidak]

Its basically the sum of your mistakes. Your 1 KK laydown will NEVER cover your losses from nervous folds in other spots. At these levels KK = AA. Just think of it like that. Write it on your face.

[givememyleg]

Fairly rarely...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($20.95)
Hero ($26.45)
MP ($16.80)
CO ($8.70)
Button ($65.95)
SB ($14.25)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, K.
Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, Button raises to $3, 1 fold, BB raises to $10, Hero ..

I think that is a fairly easy fold..

[Seasider]

If you have a HUD running, and the nit has only raised like 5 hands in the last 500 or so, and all of a sudden he's 3/4 betting you pf, then yes, I fold KK without a second thought.

This, and against some unknown on a weekend night i'm probably not folding QQ either depending how frisky i'm feeling.

[Miffed22001]

never fold KK with only 100bbs behind.
Never fold KK preflop below 200nl.

[sejje]

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, K.
Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, Button raises to $3, 1 fold, BB raises to $10, Hero ..

I think that is a fairly easy fold..

I don't agree, unless you have reads.

[givememyleg]

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, K.
Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, Button raises to $3, 1 fold, BB raises to $10, Hero ..

I think that is a fairly easy fold..

I don't agree, unless you have reads.

I think the only read I really need there is that bb isn't a complete donk. Against an unknown it's a lot closer but most of the time the 4th bet there is KK+.

[Chopper]

WRONG.

at 25 NL w/o knowing villain is a friggin ROCK, and even then, i dont fold here. i call.

i dont frequently shove over w/ KK, like i do w/ AA, but i certainly dont fold.

are you saying you were 100% sure that this is AA everytime you see this line? no way, especially w/o seeing a pfr under 3%.

at this level, it doesnt even mean he's all that strong. he is RRing you (who has him covered) and the big stack at the table. he "could" be just trying to steal the raises by making you both think only AA would do this.

you should've called, imo.

[Pelion]

hmmm call or push. probably push.

I dont fold this without a read.

[gingerwizard]

never fold KK with only 100bbs behind.
Never fold KK preflop below 200nl.

Since we see the old "Fold KK preflop?" post every week, it would be good if some of the big players, say Miffed, wrote a sticky explaining why the advice in the above 2 sentences should be taken. We could then direct questions to that sticky.

Just a thought

[Jimmy Mac]

never fold KK with only 100bbs behind.
Never fold KK preflop below 200nl.

Not sure I totally agree with this. I mean, if you have alot of hands with a guy and a solid read that his range is KK+, then you should fold - regardless of stakes. That said, I just looked though my last 100k. I folded it twice and one of them looks like a misclick. The other one looks a bit weak too, but I guess I must have had a read

Regardless though, I think there are more important aspects of your game to worry about - obv you can stack of with KK every time and still crush low stakes.

[Miffed22001]

some quick rules.
If you have 100bbs, there are hands you cannot/should not fold unless the board is super dry. So never fold bottom set in a raised pot, never fold KK for 100bbs unless the guy is 9/0 and even then you should pay it off. The fact is that some donk will squeeze you with kings/queens or whatever and you should never fold kings ever.
Renton would argue your equity in the pot is just too big, and to be brutally frank i agree in all but 0.000005 cases.
You have to have a sick sick sick sick read to fold the amount of equity Kk has preflop.
In games smaller than 200nl people are felting QQ/AK hence folding KK with the equity it has there is also wrong.

When the stacks get deep decisiosn become less straight forwrd. I.e it isnt wrong to raise 32o UTG at a full ring game with 450bbs stacks, but it is wrong to stack off 450bbs deep with KK preflop.

[gingerwizard]

Beautiful. Cheers Miffed. Can someone sticky his last reply now please so that we have a KK preflop referral post!

[Miffed22001]

as a caveat, what some people dont know or forget or are not aware of is that sometimes you HAVE to pay off certain hands in certain spots to maintain long term +EV.
If you have bottom set in a raised pot on a fout to a flush board you just cant fold bottom set ever. If the guy hs an overset here you have to pay it off.
Same applies with Kk preflop with 100bbs, you have to pay it off because people WILL push with less. KK has 40-50% equity versus AK+ and anyone who would fold psotflop with 50% equity in the pot is retarded hence preflop its a nobrainer.
Sure, you WILL pay off AA with KK, but in the long run all in with preflop with KK = +ev.

[gingerwizard]

If you have bottom set in a raised pot on a fout to a flush board you just cant fold bottom set ever. If the guy hs an overset here you have to pay it off.

fout?

do you mean four? E.g. if there are four hearts on a board you still call big bets with bottom set?

[sejje]

If you have bottom set in a raised pot on a fout to a flush board you just cant fold bottom set ever. If the guy hs an overset here you have to pay it off.

fout?

do you mean four? E.g. if there are four hearts on a board you still call big bets with bottom set?

He obviously meant four. And he was obviously wrong about that part.

[JL]

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, K.
Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, Button raises to $3, 1 fold, BB raises to $10, Hero ..

I think that is a fairly easy fold..

I don't agree, unless you have reads.

I think the only read I really need there is that bb isn't a complete donk. Against an unknown it's a lot closer but most of the time the 4th bet there is KK+.

Please dont ever fold KK pre-flop...you'll regret it so much when you see something like this:

Texas Hold'em $2-$4 NL (real money), hand #1,944,744,963
Table Quito, 1 Mar 2007 12:37 AM ET

Seat 1: OmG_AA ($442.00 in chips)
Seat 7: elistake ($1,093.85 in chips)
Seat 8: maverick1--- ($415.40 in chips)
Seat 9: howzat42 ($398.80 in chips)
Seat 10: JLMS37 K K ($695.30 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
JLMS37 posts blind ($2), OmG_AA posts blind ($4).

PRE-FLOP
elistake folds, maverick1--- bets $10, howzat42 bets $16, JLMS37 bets $50, OmG_AA folds, maverick1--- bets $78, howzat42 bets $382.80 and is all-in, JLMS37 folds, maverick1--- calls $310.80.

FLOP [board cards 5S,JH,KD ]

TURN [board cards 5S,JH,KD,8D ]

RIVER [board cards 5S,JH,KD,8D,2D ]

SHOWDOWN
howzat42 shows A 9
maverick1--- shows Q Q

Obviously both players are not that good, but I did not have any reads at the time.

[mrhappy333]

Never Fold KK

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

UTG ($8.75)
UTG+1 ($5.80)
MP1 ($42.45)
MP2 ($12.75)
MP3 ($15.15)
CO ($13.70)
Button ($16.80)
SB ($23.25)
Mrhappy ($25)
This guy was reraising all my raises!!

Preflop: Mrhappy is BB with , .
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.25, 1 fold, MP3 calls $0.25, 1 fold, Button calls $0.25, SB completes, Mrhappy raises to $1.5, MP1 raises to $5, MP3 folds, Button folds, SB folds, Mrhappy raises to $25, MP1 calls $20.

Flop: ($50.75) , , (2 players)

Turn: ($50.75) (2 players)

River: ($50.75) (2 players)

Final Pot: $50.75

Results in white below:
Mrhappy has Kd Ks (one pair, kings).
MP1 has As Qd (one pair, aces).
Outcome: MP1 wins $50.75.

[Miffed22001]

four flush as in flop is K64 two spades.

[sejje]

four flush as in flop is K64 two spades.

How is that a four-flush?

I think you're mis-using the term. A four-flush board is like 2s 4s 7s 9s Ah.

What you're talking about, I would call "someone might have flopped a flush draw" or "a two-spade flop."

[Miffed22001]

four flush as in flop is K64 two spades.

How is that a four-flush?

I think you're mis-using the term. A four-flush board is like 2s 4s 7s 9s Ah.

What you're talking about, I would call "someone might have flopped a flush draw" or "a two-spade flop."

are we goingto argue over how im using a word/saying??

you know what i mean stop being pedantic.

[Balboni]

I agree w everyone, at low limits, especially against unknowns, you simply can't fold KK pf. So many players at that level will get felted with QQ, AK, AQ, and even smaller pocket pairs that you simply have to call. I believe that someone is dealt aces 1 in 27 times that someone has kings (correct me if I am wrong). With that math, and considering the WIDE range of hands some of these low limit beginners will push with, I'm insta-calling.

[Pelion]

If you have KK there are 50 cards left.

Chance someone gets an A is 4/50
Chance someone gets another A is 3/49
That works out to be about

1 in~ 2500/12 ~ 205

so theres about a 1/205 or so chance of someone having AA given that you have KK.

Obviously once they start raising and reraising it gets more likely.

edit: Im an idiot. This is only headsup.

[mrhappy333]

maybe??
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

BB ($26.80)
UTG ($50.70)
MP ($19.60)
CO ($16.15)
Button ($31.45)
Hero ($24.20)

Preflop: Hero is SB with , .
UTG raises to $0.5, 3 folds, Hero raises to $1.25, 1 fold, UTG raises to $2, Hero raises to $4.25, UTG raises to $52.2, Hero calls $19.95 (All-In).

Flop: ($76.65) , , (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($76.65) (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($76.65) (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $76.65

Results in white below:
UTG has As Ah (two pair, aces and tens).
Hero has Ks Kh (two pair, kings and tens).
Outcome: UTG wins $76.65.

[ChrisTheFish]

don't fold KK preflop below 50NL i think.

I'm just tilting because the last 13 times iv'e had KK, iv'e been against AA 7. So i get plenty of practise folding them preflop

And yes, AA shown all times.

[givememyleg]

WRONG.

at 25 NL w/o knowing villain is a friggin ROCK, and even then, i dont fold here. i call.

i dont frequently shove over w/ KK, like i do w/ AA, but i certainly dont fold.

are you saying you were 100% sure that this is AA everytime you see this line? no way, especially w/o seeing a pfr under 3%.

at this level, it doesnt even mean he's all that strong. he is RRing you (who has him covered) and the big stack at the table. he "could" be just trying to steal the raises by making you both think only AA would do this.

you should've called, imo.

I didn't fold of course, but I thought real hard about it! Obv it was KK v AA, meh at results oriented. I dunno, I don't think I'm WRONG at what I've said and I've still never folded KK pf, but there were a few times (this situation included) where I was really close.