lagg or tagg? Whats better?

[Miffed22001]

'A loose aggressive type player will always be able to extract a higher bb/100 rate than a tight aggressive type player'

Discuss

My personal thoughts.
1. Number of tables
2. Table image
3. Preflop action
4. Bluffability
5. Steals
etc

What are others thoughts on what should, theoretically be the better style?

[Demiparadigm]

I can't effectively play more than 3-4 tables.
That being said, I have a higher sustained BB/100 than any "TAgg" player I know of.

However, I have proven to myself that effective tight play decreases my BB/100 only slightly, and would allow me to play up to 8 tables effectively.

Therefore, I believe TAgg play is more profitable in the sense that you can play more hands on more tables in the same amount of time.

[Pelion]

It totally depends on the table situation. Against totally unaware players ABC TAG will keep the highest BB/100.

How much you have to deviate from that, and in what way would totally depend on what games you played in.

e.g. in really loose passive games where counterplay rules, LAG would be horrible.

[Demiparadigm]

It totally depends on the table situation. Against totally unaware players ABC TAG will keep the highest BB/100.

How much you have to deviate from that, and in what way would totally depend on what games you played in.

e.g. in really loose passive games where counterplay rules, LAG would be horrible.

This really only shows that you don't understand the entire concept of LAgg play.

Why, in a loose passive game where people play too many hands and go too far with them, would you think that it would be more profitable to play LESS hands than in a tough game?

[Miffed22001]

nice start demi
I agree a taggy type player can play more tables.
reasons would generally be less hands, less reads needed to effectivly play in tagg mode.
The opposite would be true for a good lagg. Fewer tables because reads are more dependant, more concentration on tables because larger VP$IP or need to bet.
Saying that then, is tagg better?
My bb/100 is better in a laggy mode than tagg mode yet i cant play as many tables too. So does that make tight right?

[Pelion]

It totally depends on the table situation. Against totally unaware players ABC TAG will keep the highest BB/100.

How much you have to deviate from that, and in what way would totally depend on what games you played in.

e.g. in really loose passive games where counterplay rules, LAG would be horrible.

This really only shows that you don't understand the entire concept of LAgg play.

Why, in a loose passive game where people play too many hands and go too far with them, would you think that it would be more profitable to play LESS hands than in a tough game?

How very confrontational of you...

In a loose passive game where people play too many hands and go too far with them it would be more profitable to play more hands but to play them passivly until they hit.
Whats the point of raising KQo when you are going to be called by any A (THAT YOU ARE BEHIND), and you are going to be called by bottom pair after the flop so cbetting wont work.

Youve got the Loose part right, but I dont think you understand the situations where the AG is useful.

It is much better to play more hands passivly, and then start betting when you have hit the hand. That is actually a very tight postflop style since you are mostly betting 2 pair or better type hands, and arent getting too worked up over A high or TPTK.

So really you are Loose-Passive preflop and Tight-Aggressive postflop.
Aggressive before the flop, and loose after the flop destroys alot of the implied odds this type of player is desperate to give you, and you end up paying off some random 2 pair with your TPTK and then blaming luck or their horrible play when actually it was your style that failed to properly exploit the situation, and your style that gave them huge implied odds to play crap.

Maybe you dont understand the entire concept of counterplay

[andy-akb]

I dont think there is a better or worse, it completely depends on the situation. If you can only play a few tables then lagg will be more profitable, it you want to massively multitable, tag is better for that. The higher in stakes you go the more lags you see, and these arent just the lags that like to bet, they are the lags that know what they are doing. So again, to find out which is the most profitable it all depends what and where you play, and more importantly, you yourself. In the end though there is not 'best", there is only what works for you.

[Pelion]

The way I understand it, the TAG style is the ABC "optimum" way of playing according to sklansky's fundamental theorum. Of course you adjust your ranges so that, if someone is playing any A for top pair then you play A9 for top pair, whereas if he is only playing AJ+ for top pair you will need to play tighter, however the basic game plan is the same. Get money in when you are ahead. Call to draw when you are behind but have odds. Fold otherwise.

On the other hand the LAG style is basically designed to throw other people of their game, and force them to play out of their comfort zone. You allow yourself to make some small "mistakes" to try and force your opponent into making much larger mistakes.

If you agree on those definitions then it should be pretty obvious that TAG is supirior to LAG against opponents who will only consider their cards when making a decision, and will not be aware of your actions at all.

So what style is "better" depends entirely on the situation.

The question is similar to asking "which hand is better, AJo or 56s?" A whole lot of other things need to be considered before you can start to answer the question.

[jackvance]

This really only shows that you don't understand the entire concept of LAgg play.

Why, in a loose passive game where people play too many hands and go too far with them, would you think that it would be more profitable to play LESS hands than in a tough game?

I'm glad you posted this. The typical advise you always get here is "play tighter" but the last few days I've been thinking I actually make more if I play a bit looser and get into more pots, simply because these 10NL guys make so much against-the-odds bets.

Ofcourse when I go multi-table I'll become somewhat tighter, but now I'm sticking to one table b/c of BR issues and mainly for learning purposes, and this is the impression I got..

[Pelion]

The typical advise you always get here is "play tighter" but the last few days I've been thinking I actually make more if I play a bit looser and get into more pots, simply because these 10NL guys make so much against-the-odds bets.

One of the big reasons that beginners are advised to pay tight preflop is because it keeps them from having to make difficult decisions later on in the hand.

Cash games shouldnt be about avoiding marginal decisions, they should be about finding the right side of them. You want to be in more pots with poor players because you want to give them the most chance possible to donk off their chips to you. The question is how is this most explotable? I dont think you can lump all poor players together and say "play LAG against them and be rich". Poker players all have different styles, and poor poker players all have different styles too, For every different type of player you come up against there will be a different way to exploit them fully. You cant just say "LAG" is best, or"TAG" is best and claim that people who disagree "just dont understand". The correct answer, as usual, is "it depends".

[jackvance]

One of the big reasons that beginners are advised to pay tight preflop is because it keeps them from having to make difficult decisions later on in the hand.

Yeah, exactly. At first I'd have to wait wait wait for those good hands.. but after I did those flopread-exercices, and people read-exercices I put myself on, it's like I can better "see" the angles in which I am +EV. Not just because of the odds, but also because I calculate the hands my opponents could be at, and the chance they could be doing this or that play. In the past it used to be a frustrating experience to be faced with a sudden huge raise.. because all I could think was "how the hell should I know what he is holding here??"..

Now I am more capable of calmly assessing such situations. Let's say I put someone on 1/3 of having me beat and 2/3 of me having him beat, it's an easy call then. Compared to the old "standard fold", mixed up with the frustrated "ok now I'm calling!".. ofcourse usually at the wrong time. Quite a difference.

That is why playing too tight doesn't really suit me anymore, atleast that's the impression I get. Played 3 hours now, didn't get good starting hands at all, but I must say I had some luck, in the way I got my draws to cash out (not more than the odds would suggest, but at critical times) and in which my assessments of the situation seemed to come out positive most of the time. If I put someone at 1/3 of having me beat.. he might indeed have me beat and I'll lose money then. But in the long run, especially when my calculations sharpen, this will be a +EV strategy.

So yeah, played 3 hours, doubled my BR. No kidding. Feels good too. But I better take a break now.. while my game seems to be improving, I have no such confidence in my level-headedness lol :P

[Miffed22001]

So what style is "better" depends entirely on the situation.

Ok thats the thread title, i agree.
But im not asking whats better.
my post states that laggs should be able to extract a higher bb/100 (as useless a stat as that is)
what im asking you is
1. Why? (even, is that the truth)
2. How?


eg.
Axx flop after a preflop raise HU lagg vs tagg.
If lagg raised and tagg decides to move all in what do we put him on?
If on the other hand tagg raised preflop and lagg moves all in what do we put him on?
If both do this on any Axx flop who calls and loses more often? Does anybodys calling range increase because of table image.
Effectivly, does a laggy player play for stacks more often because he can push all in on any flop and get called by weaker holdings?

[Black Panther]

What is Counterplay?

[Pelion]

my post states that laggs should be able to extract a higher bb/100 (as useless a stat as that is)
what im asking you is
1. Why? (even, is that the truth)
2. How?

You are still asking a general question. I think you could get a higher BB/100 with a LAG style if you where playing against opponents who were all playing an abc, slightly aware TAG style. In other words, if you were playing against sethunters. I dont think LAG would get you the highest BB/100playing at a table full of calling stations. Try it though. Give 5k hands a go at the paradise 2NL game. Really LAG it up and see what happens. I personally think you will get yourself into too many situations where you dont know where the hell you are, but test it out.

Against nutcampers, LAG works well because you pick up all the pots where none of you hit. You pick up alot of small pots to balence your blinds, but the way you do it makes your semi-aware opponent devalue your range (see rondavus range odds post). Thats all fine. The problem is they devalue your range too much, and dont realise it is a situational range that doesnt apply when they are actually fighting back so they end up going to war with A high. I think its these big pots where people decide to take a stand that make up for a big chunk of your profit. Against good players it also helps that they cant tell the difference between your drawsx and your made hands if you semibluff alot, so they may fold the best hand to your draw, but call/reraise with a pair when you have a set. They are also more likely to call bets when you hit your draw than if you just check/called.
But for all of this to have any effect you need to be against at least semi-aware opponents. If you are against opponents who will always call with middle pair+ and always fold when 3 to a flush come down then there is no point mixing it up like this. You are foolish to bet a draw, against a calling station but you are also foolish to not bet TPGK all the way to the river (for moderate sized bets).

[Pelion]

What is Counterplay?

Counterplay is one of Aok's strategys. I cant be bothered to find the post right now but its basically for beating very loose-passive full ring games that are filled with calling stations.

He basically says "If they are going to call you down with anything they have connected with e.g. bottom/middle pair +, and they are going to call big bets on the turn and river in small pots then it is better to wait to see if you will make your hand before you bet".

You start with the same sorts of hands as the TAG style.

You play all pocket pairs, AK-AT, KQ-KJ, suited and unsuited connectors 45+ and you play Axs.

There are 2 groups of hands.

Group 1

AA and KK.

Limp preflop from any position, if it is raised behind you then reraise to isolate. If the pot gets big then just push.

Group 2.

Preflop raises are going to be very rare at this table. If there are alot of preflop raises then you shouldnt be using counterplay.


QQ-22, AK, AQs

Limp from any position and call a moderate preflop raise.

AQo-AT, KQ-KJ, 45+,46+, Axs

Limp from any position. Fold to a moderate raise. Be more willing to call small raises (when pot odds are large) with suited connectors, suited Aces. Dont call raises with Big offsuit Broadways.
If raises are slightly common then only play these in later positions.


Postflop Play

check/call with anything worth playing that is less than top 2 pair (e.g. draws with good odds, TPTK).
Bet/Raise with top 2 pair or better

That is all.

I probably made a few mistakes in there but I dont think its too far off.

The theory is that if they are going to try to draw out on you what ever you bet, but they are going to call you even if they dont, then you are better off seeing if the turn is safe before you bet, but then making a nice big bet on the turn that they will call anyway.

[Seabass]

If I play lagg or tagg, it depends on the players at the table. I guess you might call it counter play.

Alsow, what you see as lagg play? and are we talking full ring or 6 max?

Axx flop after a preflop raise HU lagg vs tagg.
If lagg raised and tagg decides to move all in what do we put him on? - Reads*100.. what is his range to push with?
If on the other hand tagg raised preflop and lagg moves all in what do we put him on? - Why is a tagg pushing vs a lagg?
If both do this on any Axx flop who calls and loses more often? - Realy dont see the point of this question.
Does anybodys calling range increase because of table image. - Depends on the player.

Generaly, a good lagg will have higher bb/100 but alsow higher variance, but it all depends.

[Fnord]

Why are you guys so binary about this?

Play pretty tight, then start picking spots. As you get better and pay more attention, you find more spots.

[arkana]

Why are you guys so binary about this?

Play pretty tight, then start picking spots. As you get better and pay more attention, you find more spots.

Amen brother

[Pelion]

Why are you guys so binary about this?

Play pretty tight, then start picking spots. As you get better and pay more attention, you find more spots.

Thats pretty much what im trying to do now. Im finding a fair few spots at the moment. Also when I first join a table I usually play 19 hand poker (+ limping Axs and SCs in late position with a few limpers).

I usually start to loosen up after Ive been playing for a while and have a few notes on what im likely to be called with, and who calls cbets etc.

[biondino]

Fnord OTM. Miffed, it kind of sounds like you've decided LAgg is The Way and you want your view vindicated. But how anyone can say poker is definitely ANYTHING is beyond me.

(one thing I do know is that when I play LAgg, I lose ALL my money ALL the time. So maybe I'm just as biased )

an afterthought - can someone describe to me what happens at a table that's filled with LAggs? Does it result in annihilation?

[Pelion]

can someone describe to me what happens at a table that's filled with LAggs? Does it result in annihilation?

It results in a WSOP final table.

[bigboy5540]

while it depends on the player and skill to determine which style yields more winnings, here's my 2 cents:

tags don't play as many hands so when they raise their raises get more respect (obviously). This leads to the next point. When a tag's raise is reraised by an aware player, you can almost bet the aware player has a real hand. This makes it easier for the aware tag to muck his hand, knowing that his aware opponent has raised him, even though his opponent knows that he is a tag and does not fool around. Therefore the tag can read the opponent's hand more easily than a lag. Lag requires more skill to use. What this also means is that the tag will experiance less swings from being bluffed out or making a bad call because he will be able to put his opponent on a hand more easily than the lag.

The lag will experiance more swings because most lags have a target on their forehead when they are at a table. People will try to bluff then out. People will be more inclined to play random hands against them. People will try to break them. Lags will get much more action when they have a hand. However, this also requires lags to be much more skillful than tags. In fact, most lags don't win as much as tags because of the major swings involved. However, to master the lag style of play will of course yield much higher BB/100.

There is a lag player at bodog named squatchomo who wins thousands on a good day playing 200 nl. He gets the most action when he has a hand and has a true sense for when he is beat. If you can reach this point, lag is the way to go. But playing lag is like playing with fire.

BTW, when fnord says that you should pick your spots, he is just saying to play tag but bluff every so often. That is simply a thinking tag player. To truely play lag invloves much more than bluffing. True lag play is about table image, getting the most action when one has a hand, on top of bluffing and playing more hands. It is not only about bluffing when you "pick your spot". Fnord says don't be so binary about this but he is wrong. True lag play is all about being binary. To be SO loose that the other players at the table become loose as well to try to break the lag. To utilize his table image to get more action. "Picking your spots" is just being a GOOD tag player, not being lag Fnord.

[bigboy5540]

Why are you guys so binary about this?

Play pretty tight, then start picking spots. As you get better and pay more attention, you find more spots.

I just want to add. Not everyone wants to play like you bro. You are advocating tag style and not really answering the question in the first post.

[Rondavu]

Why are you guys so binary about this?

Play pretty tight, then start picking spots. As you get better and pay more attention, you find more spots.

I just want to add. Not everyone wants to play like you bro. You are advocating tag style and not really answering the question in the first post.

Oh no you didn't.

[bigboy5540]

oh and sorry about the double post guys. haha uh oh what man? read my long post because a lot of valuable info is in that post. tell me what you think.

[Rondavu]

"Picking your spots" is just being a GOOD tag player, not being lag.

Well that would depend on what cards you have, now wouldn't it? If you're in there duking it out with 34 suited on an AAT board with percieved fold equity, then I wouldn't consider that Tagg at all.

[bigboy5540]

"Picking your spots" is just being a GOOD tag player, not being lag.

Well that would depend on what cards you have, now wouldn't it? If you're in there duking it out with 34 suited on an AAT board with percieved fold equity, then I wouldn't consider that Tagg at all.

lag is more about the image bro. just because you are tight and aggressive doesn't mean you can't play 34 suited and bluff. Being tight means playing less hands but not necessarily only playing premium hands. Tight players can also play suited connectors and bluff once in a while. So the play you are describing is just as likely to be made by a thinking TAGG player as a wild LAGG player.

[Rondavu]

"Picking your spots" is just being a GOOD tag player, not being lag.

Well that would depend on what cards you have, now wouldn't it? If you're in there duking it out with 34 suited on an AAT board with percieved fold equity, then I wouldn't consider that Tagg at all.

lag is more about the image bro. just because you are tight and aggressive doesn't mean you can't play 34 suited and bluff. Being tight means playing less hands but not necessarily only playing premium hands. Tight players can also play suited connectors and bluff once in a while. So the play you are describing is just as likely to be made by a thinking TAGG player as a wild LAGG player.

Fair enough. So if I sit at a table and catch AA KK AA QQ AK 88 back to back and act aggressive without showing down most of them, am I now a Lagg?

[drmcboy]

it takes an idiot to bluff someone you know is going to call you.

[bigboy5540]

rondavu even tho you may not be a lag player, nor do you even want to be a lag player, if you picked up all these hands and played them aggressively, your IMAGE at the table will now be lagg. Whether you like it or not, you will get a lot more action on your hands and people will give you a lot less credit for your bets until proven otherwise.

[Seabass]

I play full ring based from tag, but as stated I'm alsow picking my spots. I might very well raise 76s utg or steal with suited crap in pos. I do that because my tight image (combined with the players on the table) will let me get away with it and because I trust my post flop play.

This is not lagg play.

Having an image as something (lagg or tagg) and always playing like that (lagg or tagg) aint the same thing. (Did that make sence?)

Going back to the topic, "A loose aggressive type player will ALWAYS be able to extract a higher bb/100 rate than a tight aggressive type player" - No, it depends.

it takes an idiot to bluff someone you know is going to call you.

Not sure how you intended this, but well said.

[Fnord]

BTW, when fnord says that you should pick your spots, he is just saying to play tag but bluff every so often.

Not really. A big part of my pre-flop game is getting out of dodge when predictable players pick up hands and getting in there and gambling with really terrible players. Lots of my posts advocate this approach.

I'll let you in on a few secrets of the LAgg.

Their approach to the game is very exploitable. However, many tighter player at the lower stakes don't have the sack to continue with weak hands against a very loose + aggressive opponent who more than likely has nothing. Hold'em is a game where more often than not, no one has much of anything. If somone is opening lots of pots, it's really easy to buy-in a little short (100bb or less) and nail him with re-raises pre-flop to eek out a small profit. Hence, LAgg is in there trying to induce otherwise tight players to play his game of no-showdown-value-hole-card chicken, because he's better at it than you are. He's also really good at picking up on spots where you're going to try to bluff him.

Stealing pots from tight players isn't the big gold mine of LAgg though! Most of the money in poker comes from the bottom x% of truely terrible players. LAgg is in there gambling with them, grossly out-playing them and often stacking them before you get a shot. He's not waiting for Aces/set to stack the table calling station when TPNK will do.

Finally, rake is a huge problem for the LAgg. He's moving around a lot more chips and paying taxes on all those extra pots he needs to win to keep up with tighter players with a comperable win-rate.

[bigboy5540]

u are stating the obvious now fnord. and what you are saying is to play into the lagg's game. Calling him with mediocre hands, playing "chicken" with him. This is what good lagg players want you to do so they can exploit you. This is their game. They are better at it than you in most cases. If you play their game you will lose more often than not.
Also you don't incorporate table image into your discussion. Lagg play is all about table image. I know you like to gamble with players you feel are worse than you but this does not change the fact that you are probably still seen as a Tagg player at the table who likes to call the Lagg players to exploit them. A good lagg player will know this as well and not let you exploit him as easily as you think.

[BankItDrew]

I think that Tagg is better for multi-tabling. Lagg is better for 1-2 table players.

Usually, no one has that good of a hand, even if everyone at the table got to see all 5 community cards. So, I think a Laggy player could exploit this. Most players, wait for good cards, so it makes sense to take advantage.

[Miffed22001]

Miffed, it kind of sounds like you've decided LAgg is The Way and you want your view vindicated.

No im very much an adaptive player who enjoys the skill required to be effective as a looser player. The challenge is enjoyable initself, as is taking rocks money when their sets are no good.

Im tyring to get past the 'it depends' bit and discuss why it really does 'depend'
I dont necessairly have a lot to add to the thread i wanted to consider what others thought.

[dev]

I always thought calling someone lagg or tagg is just a statistical analysis of their play from a perspective that usually doesn't see their hands (poker tracker).

If I were to describe my play as lagg or tagg, I'd usually say lagg, but I've made a lot of money in very loose games by just camping. Poker levels tend to flip-flop. Tagg is better at bar tourneys, lagg is better at most low-limit casino games, tagg is again better with all the laggs at most higher limit casino games, and something in between is better at games where everyone knows each other, like the ultra high-stakes stuff and home games among good players.

You guys might be able to translate this into the limits of online poker, but I really can't. From a statistical point of view, a good player will make more over time with higher variance using a lagg style, but if you can describe your style in four letters, you're on the wrong track.

The truth is, you can't label a good player. Adaptive is the key word. If I'm playing my best, I'm playing the opposite of what you expect.

[midas06]

play your opsssss. not what you decide to do.

[DaNutsInYoEye]

Poker isn't static. Positions change, images change, players change, stack sizes change, cards change, etc. on every new hand. You'd be more successful if you if you lost the game plan and played according to what the table gives you. Next hand re-analyze and play accordingly. Rinse and repeat.

[Lodogg]

I put it to the pokertracker test.

Semi-Loose Ags averaged win rates of 10.4/bb
TAG averaged 5.6/bb

The key is to play slightly tighter that your opponents.

NL 10 36% VPIP
NL 25 26% VPIP
NL 50 24% VPIP

At these levels LAGGY's Rule. I wonder how they would do at much higher tighter limits? Anyone have VPIP % on NL 200 or higher?

[TalentedTom]

i can 8 table 30% vipvip
or i can 8 table 18% vipvip

lag > table full of tags
tag > table full of lags

get my drift?

[bigboy5540]

very true.

[bigboy5540]

very true.