playing against many fish

[bunthorne]

I like playing against fish (ie those who are less fishy than I am!!!!) and seem to do well in NL cash games at 1/2 or 2/4 with one or two fish on the table.

The time I struggle is when I am on a table with three, four or even five fish. When I get a big pair I drop the hammer - sometimes I get paid and sometimes I don't. But I'll also raise to around 4xbb with holdings such as AQ or AJ suited (i usually play on 6 player tables) and very often I'll have two, three or four callers. The more I play the more I realise that such fish will call pre-flop raises with very weak hands, e.g. any two suited cards, or 4 5 offsuit, or K rag, Q rag etc. The trouble is that when the board comes ragged and I miss there is every chance that at least one of the fish has hit a low pair and bang goes the money I've raised with.

I will bluff having raised the pot against one or two opponents, but I know there is little chance of getting three or more to fold so I'll give it up. But even aginst one opponent who has bottom pair I might come off worst as he won't give it up when faced with a decent bet. This is great when I do hit the flop, but I tend to miss more often tahn hit.

So what I tend to do is hurry off to another table. I suppose I have an advantage over each fish indivdually, but the combined strength of three or four is too much!

Is there a technique that I am missing?

[strawman]

Is there a technique that I am missing?

You can't gut them all. lf you are playing with five fish occasionally one will flop off the boat. If you are making correct decisions what more can you ask for?

Additionally, simply because you didn't hit why do you assume your opponents have? If you have overcards on a rag board you still have outs and they may have missed as well.

[Vrax]

Search in forum: name "aokrongly", title: "counterplay".

Then raise'm so much it will hurt when they pee.

[Irisheyes]

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=22941

This is what I did in the same situation. Also counterplay is good like Vrax mentioned.

[Toadstool]

When party $25NL was full of calling stations - i came to the conclusion that preflop raising with high unpaired hands or pocket pairs lower than queens was not worth it. If the fish are going to call the blind, they will call a preflop raise, it doesnt really thin the field. Seeing as when you play against fish more hands are won/lost at showdown, it didnt really make any sense to raise my AK, you cant bluff these fish and most of the time you are going to miss and give up your preflop raise. I used to limp along and if i made a hand I would bet it hard and usually get paid off. If you miss - oh well you only lost the blind amount. People say you are letting people hit 2 pair etc, but if you limp with AK and you get a board of K 4 6 - its very unlikely somebody has K4, K6 or 46. If you do get a caller then think what could he be calling me with? 5 3, 57, K with a lower kicker probably. Fish will let you know when your beat - If they are calling you you are usually ahead but if you get raised by a fish just cut your losses. I played around 30k hands at party $25NL and the only hands i consistantly raised were AA and KK, The players i was playing with paid no attention to how often i raised preflop and i often got a lot of action from those fish. Nowadays at party I have noticed the players have become a LOT better, so this tactic does not usually work there. Though i recommend this tactic when playing with a lot of fish.

[Rondavu]

OPPONENTS
<--TIGHT----------------LOOSE-->

EQUITY
<--PREFLOP------------POSTFLOP-->

That's the idea. The looseness of your opponents is in direct relation to where you put your value. The looser they are, the more postflop poker you play. The tighter your raising hand requirements become. You can also limp a wider range of hands and only put money in if you flop hard.

[Fnord]

For what it's worth, I can't make any sense of Rondavu's post.

With deep money you can't make a huge pre-flop mistake in NLHE for any reasonable opener against any reasonable opening range. Accept this and move on.

Lets say 72o calls our raise. Well, he's going to be in for some difficult decions and not going to really make many nut-like hands he can go to the felt with confidence with. However, if the skill gap is high enough he could push us off enough hands and take the best of it when he out-flops us enough for the call to be +EV. Alright, maybe that's a stretch, but lets talk about more reasonable holdings like say.... 64s which will make more nut-like hands.

It's a post-flop game. Period. End of story. Manipulate pot sizes, steal from the weak, stack the guys that go too far with luke-warm hands, laydown against straight-forward opponents, pick your battles, etc. Play poker. If you seek easier answers, learn to play a game other than cash ring deep stacked NLHE (unless you like set farming really good games.)

[biondino]

If you're playing $400NL I suspect it's unlikely that half to all of your opponents is a fish - perhaps a leak in your game is that you're mixing them up with genuine LAggs who can and will bet you off your hands?

[Rondavu]

What I'm saying is that loose games offer better postflop implied odds, therefore some hands you might normally raise in a normal game, you limp instead because you'll get 6 callers. Might as well wait until you hit a flop before you start putting money in. You're not playing poker as much as hit the flop and get payed. Putting money in preflop becomes increasingly senseless since your made hands postflop will all have natural value.

Of course it's a post flop game Nord. Sometimes it becomes MORE of a postflop game however. As your fold equity diminishes (isolation, raising draws), your implied odds increase. Sometimes it becomes simply about betting when you have a great hand already made and watching 3 people pay you off.

Have you ever been in a game where no matter what you raise you get 5 callers? Do you think raising KQ is a smart move on a table like this? How about on a table full of rocks?

If you still don't understand what I'm saying let's get extreme with the hypothetical. Imagine you're at your grandmothers house playing poker against your family members on thanksgiving who know nothing about poker. You start raising good hands preflop and EVERYONE always calls. People are chasing cards like dogs after the flop. They're all passive as hell. Where has the value shifted? It's moving towards 5th street. It becomes more similar to Omaha/Hi, where you're just trying to create made hands. TPTK gets run down in a game like this. The more cards in play, the better your hand has to be. The biggest hand you'll ever get preflop is one pair.

[DogOnMySide]

I have gotta get some of that action!

What stakes does your grandmother offer? I prefer $1/$2 NL, but i will go as high as $5/$10.

Will there be pie?

[Rondavu]

Are you talking about my grandmothers pie? I think she retired it.