96s in the blinds vs fish limp and reg iso

$0.10/$0.25 Pot Limit Holdem
7 Players
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Stacks:
UTG ($30.21) 121bb
UTG+1 ($46) 184bb
MP ($25) 100bb
CO ($39.33) 157bb
BTN ($26.19) 105bb
daven (SB) ($31.56) 126bb
BB ($25.35) 101bb

Pre-Flop: ($0.35, 7 players) daven is SB :6h: :9h:
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, 1 fold, CO raises to $1.10, 1 fold, daven calls $1, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.85

Flop: :8h: :ac: :7c: ($3.55, 3 players)
daven ($30.46)?

<daven> utg+1 limp is dead money 86-2 over 40ish
<daven> iso is reg, somehow a winning player, bellarussian, pro
<daven> 18-13-4, 52% fold to 3b, 11% 4b, isos a bunch with a pretty linear range

summary of <WeldPhaser> advice

fold pre, check-call flop, check most turns

don't call pre, donk flop....

I am happy folding this pre especially in the SB.

As played I am happy c/c this flop, depending on bet sizing and how many villains are coming along to the turn.

Fold pre. C/f flop.

Fold pre.

Maybe you can c/c flop based on implied odds if the price is right. If you hit, your hand is well disguised however you are still OOP.

Now that we're here I'd probably lead assuming that the reg won't cbet as much 3 way.

C/r without knowing what the fish will do is bad. C/c is passive and will probably result in a 3 way turn which isn't good.

The problem is that you're crushed pre-flop. An early position limper is almost never a steal, (more likely a mid pocket pair or AT) so your CO raise is him saying that he has a hand that he thinks can beat a limp from very early position. I would guess that he range would be 88-JJ, AT, AJ, AQ, and maybe KQ, unless he's a fish playing trouble Broadway cards like QJ. (AK and AA-QQ would usually 3-bet here.)

Given that range PokerStove says that you only have a 33.292% equity.

This is the kind of situation where you trap yourself into paying off a bet on the flop, and maybe the turn, then end up folding to his overcard pair when he bets the river. If you don't fold, then you'll probably be paying to much to chase.

If the early position player hadn't limped, then you would have had a much better possibility of the CO raise being a blind steal, especially if the button has been nitty. In that case, then suited connectors and one-gappers are more playable because the initial raise and flop bets are more likely to be bluffs than value bets. But you still really need position to make this work well, because if you act first and check the turn, he can two-barrel you with a weak pair. If you have position then he'd have to check that pair on the turn, and you'd be able to bet out and maybe force a fold.

Also, you don't want to be playing the suited two-gappers into a raise very often. You'll have too many cases where you have to fold later, and they don't make monsters nearly as often as the suited connectors.

Remember, the blinds first to act post-flop, even though their getting to act last pre-flop makes them look good.

I'd ditch these kinds of hands pre-flop. ESPECIALLY out of position.

OMG fold pre. Not even close. You're OOP in a raised pot w/ a S2G...

Even if I was defending against an ATS min-raise from BTN, I wouldn't be playing this hand.

Note: A min-raise ATS requires you to defend almost 25% of the time (and you need the other blind doing the same) in order to prevent Villain from making monies in this fashion (ignoring post-flop play).

Point: Even that super-wide button defense range wont have 96s in it.

This is loose even for you Daven

why do i expect daven trickery here.

Not folding pre given how deep hero and 2 villains are, as long as the fish is the type that will pay off top pair post flop.What was the plan when calling pre for this type of flop?

As played, I'm check evaluating and probably check calling if not too expensive. There's also plenty of options on the turn/river if hero sniffs out weakness.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hoopy

Now that we're here I'd probably lead assuming that the reg won't cbet as much 3 way.

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Not sure I follow you here. If the reg won't cbet Hero gets a free card, ain't that nice, or am I missing something?

As I see it, the advantages of donking are:

1) Hero gets to fix the price ($2?)
2) there is a chance that everyone folds
3) chance of getting rid of the reg and play alone vs fish
4) could also prevent reg to raise a fish donk bet. Reg might be more wary of raising Hero's donk bet.
5) Hero would also gain the initiative and opportunity to barrel some turn cards vs reg if fish folds. Even if Hero decides not to barrel the turn and checks, reg might well check behind for fear of a c/r and give a free card.

The downside is that Hero may well get raised by an A.

But yes, in the end I would agree that donking is better than planning to c/c.

Let me know if I said something stupid.

edit: although the c/c line on the flop opens a unique opportunity to pull a double Daven into two opponents: c/c flop, open shove any turn. It's pure. And it's fun.

This hand turned into a good discussion.

How often do we expect reg to cbet here 3-way?

I would check raise and bet any heart,5 or T on the turn. Then barrel the river if i think the villain is capable of folding AJ AQ AK to such an aggressive line.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seven-deuce

I would check raise and bet any heart,5 or T on the turn. Then barrel the river if i think the villain is capable of folding AJ AQ AK to such an aggressive line.

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Even if the 5 or 10 of clubs come?

Of course. Why wouldn't you bet a straight if the 5 or T is a club? More reason to bet if anything.

Easy fold preflop.

Hard to hit the best straight with 3 gappers and obviously a made flush will kill you. Stay away from these hands especially out of position for a largish raise preflop.

Hands like this and making trips (off topic... sort of) will lose you tons of money. Hard to get away from.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seven-deuce

I would check raise...

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The reason i dont like this line is because it is much more likely to push the fish out of the pot.

A fish seeing a bet and a call might also begin to think his bottom pair isnt good anymore too.

For these reasons, I like leading out. I think we're unlikely to be raised, its the most likely line to draw in another bet from the fish, and if CO missed we may just wind up HU with a fishy.

Hmm, im not sure, we can't just assume the fish has hit bottom pair and adjust our play. What if the fish has whiffed and we end up OOP vs the reg? Who has a stronger range and one that hits this board quite often.

I think he will be more likely to call down vs a bet bet bet line with AT-AK than if we check raise, bet bet. Depending on the board run out of course.

Also if we bet out he may call with some FD's that he may have b/f on the flop. Actually seeing as we're deep he would prob bet call those the Khigh ones at least. But i still feel overall check raising would be better. And if he cbets TT-KK we can pick up an extra bet instead of leading and having him fold straight away.

We would need to construct a preflop range and then a betting range on the flop for villain, se what hands we could fold on the flop then a continuing range and see if we could fold some of those hands out on turn and river, also we would obviously be check raising then folding if he 3bets the flop.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by davisrei

An early position limper is almost never a steal, (more likely a mid pocket pair or AT) so your CO raise is him saying that he has a hand that he thinks can beat a limp from very early position.

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You would probably give pretty good advice if you actually read the hand and the notes for the hand.

@72

I guess the most interesting question is whether or not we want to play a draw against a fish. I really do, but maybe thats not wise.

IP yeah and also if we we're heads up in or oop and thought he would be folding a lot to a bet it would make perfect sense to bet. Folding this preflop is probably the best option though and we could look for some preflop 3bet spots from the SB if we thought he was iso'ing with a wide range from BTN and CO because he would be folding a lot.

I am by no means correct though just giving my thoughts.

bump, calling Daven to comment on his own hand

Quote:

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Originally Posted by supa

Fold pre. C/f flop.

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How can you checkfold this flop when you hit gin? Seems pretty standard to c/c flop and bet river, but c/r isn't out of the question. Hate leading though.

ok, this hand has made me do a lot of thinking about poker - which is great. Thanks to those who talked about it in irc, and to all who have posted in this thread. I even went and re-read some of isf's articles cos i thought i remember one of them being related. Then i started thinking about draws and ranges and fold equity in general. Go talk about hands, it will get you thinking about poker and probably won't make you a worse player as a consequence!

preflop - we have a pretty shitty speculative hand. CO's range isn't that strong cos he's a 13% pfr who is isolating a fish limper from lp. Is he going to end up flopping big enough to be paying us off heaps? not that likely. And given that we are mostly flopping draws with this hand then hmmm. If we could guarantee that utg+1 is coming along for the ride then calling becomes less bad - and vs an 86% vpip this is close to a guarantee. 100bb deep and this is an auto-muck. 126bb effective and it's closer. If this was vs an ep reg open and a lp fish call and we were closing the action then this is a call (perfect relative position, guarantee that the fish will be playing postflop).

flop - we pretty much hit the best we can hope for. An open ended straight draw and a backdoor flush draw multiway with a fish. What we want is to see a turn cheaply and turn the nuts vs a hand that is strong enough to pay us off. So, options.
Donk. Given that the board is drawy (twotone, connected), it is very likely that cutoff will be raising a donk with his strong hands, especially if the fish in utg+1 calls. Donk-calling means a very expensive turn. Donking also encourages the fish to fold, and when the fish calls we don't want to be barrelling as a bluff.
check-call. Fish is passive. If he bets here then we're likely to get direct pot odds to call, and if not then we can rely on something implied. Reg is in a multiway pot with a fish on a drawy board. It's unlikely that he is going to cbet here without a made hand, exactly the hands we want to be up against it when we turn the nuts. If the board checks through then we get a free turn, and give both players the chance to improve to second best hands if we hit.


turns out that it comes down to range. How about that. Anyway, preflop close, call not absolutely terrible, folding obviously fine (better?) too. Flop. Check. Not close. Check-call most of the time cos it's going to be rare that check-raising is going to make any sense.

also turns out that p4s snap response is gold. Again, not surprising...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pocketfours

How can you checkfold this flop when you hit gin? Seems pretty standard to c/c flop and bet river, but c/r isn't out of the question. Hate leading though.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by pocketfours

How can you checkfold this flop when you hit gin? Seems pretty standard to c/c flop and bet river, but c/r isn't out of the question. Hate leading though.

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Probably thinking about it wrong but seeing how we're multiway and UTG+1 is probably sitting on a pretty speculative hand (guess we really don't have enough info to base that on) we can't assume we have 8 clean outs to our open ender.

Iunno, seems like we can keep piling money into this hand only to fold when we miss, not get paid off, or stack ourselves to better.

3b pre. to big of a gap to cold call.

over bet lead or c/r both cool options. c/c also viable