Wasnt expecting that - AJs

Villain is 15/11

Odd stats - Not particularly aggressive - but has INF river agg from 9 hands that have got there.
His AGG freq is 44% on the river in comaprison to 20-25% on all other streets.

I did check these on the river when he shoved.

I have no reason to believe he is bad - so the only hand i see in his range is Quads - while AT must be considered I dont feel it makes up anything other than a tiny part of his range - but im struggling to construct a range that doenst look like this

ext results appended to pokerstove.txt

155,819,664 games 0.047 secs 3,315,312,000 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 46.840% 41.11% 05.73% 64056653 8928962.00 { AcJc }
Hand 1: 53.160% 47.43% 05.73% 73905087 8928962.00 { TT+, ATs+, KJs+, QJs, ATo+, KQo }

Be interested on what people think of that

I should have an image of checking boards as PFRer i do not like, so when i bet there is no reason for villain to believe i dont have something if i have any image to him at all

Poker Stars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($4.18)
Button ($10)
SB ($13.14)
BB ($10)
UTG ($4.33)
UTG+1 ($9.95)
Hero (MP1) ($16.71)
MP2 ($10)
MP3 ($10.17)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A:club:, J:club:
UTG calls $0.10, 1 fold, Hero bets $0.50, MP2 calls $0.50, 5 folds, UTG calls $0.40

Flop: ($1.65) 10:spade:, A:diamond:, 10:heart: (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.91, MP2 calls $0.91, UTG calls $0.91

Turn: ($4.38) J:spade: (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, MP2 bets $1.50, UTG calls $1.50, Hero calls $1.50

River: ($8.88) 3:spade: (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, MP2 bets $7.09 (All-In), [color=#666666]1 fold

Total pot: $23.06

Why no TJ? Or 9T even? If you can throw AT in there as a pf call then surely TJs should be in there, no?

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Originally Posted by bikes

i am clueless wtf you are doing in this hand. you brutalized this hand on every street.

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care to explain what is wrong with preflop? i think i am missing something.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by daven

care to explain what is wrong with preflop? i think i am missing something.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by bikes

You know very well that I don't care to.

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ok, for context i think that preflop was just fine in this hand.

flop and turn are both really interesting spots, i'll get back to them later when i'm thinking more clearly.
river is a fold
villain looks like AA (well, a range of hands all of which beat KQ anyway)

Miffed i'm as lost as you on this one, but fwiw i think your beat, the less than 1/2 pot size bet on the turn into 2 opponents is weird, the only reason i would do something like that is to scrape value from an Ax or Jx hand on a scary board when i'm holding the nuts. I think villain is super strong here and with the line he's taken i wouldn't be surprised to see him show up with TT here.

Well I'm folding turn, we got two calls on flop, highly unlikely they both have Ax. Prob bet flop more too.

Thread is tilting but I'm sorta drunk so...

Pre seems fine but I think smaller is ok, maybe better. Flop I'd go like $1.1 but maybe spew. Never checking turn.

Didn't do the math (cuzza aforementioned drinking) but even with the range you gave him we can't be very -ev to call. Gotta give him some shit hands cuz we got all passive no?

river aggression is a useless stat in a vacuum imo

you and i clearly have a very different view of umm as you put 'trolling'

i clearly started i have no idea wtf u are doin on every street and was very specific when i said brutalized.

that should tell you that you did something very wrong during preflop, flop and turn and as such you have yourself in this river spot which you are clueless on due to your misplay of the aforementioned 3 streets.

if you are looking for me to spoonfeed you, you are certainly not going to get it. i gave you a guideline to fix some potential leaks and you responded poorly.

oh and by all means if you'd like to volunteer a bunch of your time because you can be a better admin than i than please do so.

Hero did something wrong preflop? Why can't we raise AJs in MP here?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bikes

i clearly started i have no idea wtf u are doin on every street and was very specific when i said brutalized.

that should tell you that you did something very wrong during preflop,

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give us a bone bro ;) hey, just noticed that two of your earlier posts in the thread are deleted - lucky i quoted them both for posterity. Miffed's post suggesting that you were trolling the thread is gone too. Keeping the bc friendly is gg imo

preflop options are:
fold
limp behind
raise
i suspect that you and i agree that raise pre is the best option vs an unknown. But this is obviously conjecture on my part - if we agree on a raise pre then your issue must be with sizing. If not, well, we disagree and that's obviously not uncommon among poker players/people in general.

Would you please at least identify which of the following four preflop options you prefer ? (then i'll stop asking you questions in this thread - for a while at least!)

1 - fold
2 - limp behind
3 - raise, smaller sizing
4 - raise, bigger sizing

Personally don't play FR but I'm not sure with AJs in MP I want to be playing this 3+way OOP when I am called and an A flops. I think a smaller raise allows you to play a smaller pot, smaller cbets and also get away from a 3 bet OOP pre if it happens. I personally don't see how you can win a decent sized pot here often enough to warrant raising 5xbb

I only play 6max so i dunno but isolating an utg limp with 6players left to act, 4 of which have position on you with AJs might be the problem. Players behind can flat AQ etc and have you dominated. I think i'd actually fold this pre, although that might be nitty but i dunno how FR plays, if it was 6max i'd definitely iso here though.

Also as jyms pointed out whats your plan if your 3bet? Especially with your preflop iso sizing your kinda forced to fold when your OOP facing a 3bet after that iso size and if the blinds 3bet a fold is probably best preflop to, so this hand kinda loses all it's value pre because of your position IMO. Your kinda just hoping the players left to act don't wake up with a hand, or will roll over and play passive. If you get multiple callers most boards are going to be pretty hard to know if we're ahead even if we flop an ace, we could be dominated by AQ AK against 2pair or a set, big draws have tonnes of equity so your always gonna find yourself in tough spots post flop unless it folds round and only utg calls. In the long run i think this is a losing play so i'd fold pre.

i'm feeling particularly vulnerable so i'll post whatever

your mistake preflop is your sizing. in general 4xing pre is going to give you far less room to maneuver postflop which will make lots of situations more difficult given that its hard to hit strong hands you feel super comfortable with. if you made it bigger to isolate the fish i woulda made it like .70 here. you get the fringe benefit of a lot regs behind you sometimes folding hands they would always call with because they are confused by this highly advanced play of isolating the fish for bigger amounts. it's not unthinkable they might fold hands like 66- or things like KQs ATs-


on the flop you bet far too small, bet bigger so the fish can make larger mistakes on the turn and river. MP+2 is unlikely to be calling given how hard it is for him to have an ace given you have one and that AK 3bs some % of the time. however once he calls this hand is done. done. done. done. he never has a worse ace and more than likely has at the very least AQ+ if not a T. Fish overcalls which is also a giant warning sign.

on the turn you get very very very lucky. you get a card you can c/f the turn with and bet the river if it checks through. MP+2 is not going to bet AQ and he may not even bet AK. However he will certainly bet his T's. which makes this an easy c/f despite UTG being a drooler most likely.

HOWEVER. what happened is this, MP2 bet with a range that crushes yours and the fish called, and he can have a T as well and again it's hard to have an A. At this point you have to assume either A) you are beat now or B) there are too many river cards that you will be put in a redic toughspot if anyone bets. Say like any river card but an A or J is a horrible river spot if ANYONE bets. but you decided to c/over call which is a horribly large mistake.

on the river you have a really easy c/f but for some reason this is difficult despite MP2 shoving into 2 people, one of which could easily have a T.


but what do i know? more than half of this fucking subforum thinks i suck at poker.

great post bikes - quoted it cos it's gold and i'd hate it to dispappear ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bikes

i'm feeling particularly vulnerable so i'll post whatever

your mistake preflop is your sizing.

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got it, i guess we simply think that is more vs less of a huge mistake then. I guess i don't see this as such a brutal mistake as you do, but i like your explanation for why below, thank you

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bikes

in general 4xing pre is going to give you far less room to maneuver postflop which will make lots of situations more difficult given that its hard to hit strong hands you feel super comfortable with. if you made it bigger to isolate the fish i woulda made it like .70 here. you get the fringe benefit of a lot regs behind you sometimes folding hands they would always call with because they are confused by this highly advanced play of isolating the fish for bigger amounts. it's not unthinkable they might fold hands like 66- or things like KQs ATs-

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^ @ everyone: read this cos there is good stuff to think on in it, and thinking on it will make you better at poker. Regardless of whether you end up agreeing or disagreeing with it. Same goes for the rest of bikes' post below.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bikes

on the flop you bet far too small, bet bigger so the fish can make larger mistakes on the turn and river. MP+2 is unlikely to be calling given how hard it is for him to have an ace given you have one and that AK 3bs some % of the time. however once he calls this hand is done. done. done. done. he never has a worse ace and more than likely has at the very least AQ+ if not a T. Fish overcalls which is also a giant warning sign.

on the turn you get very very very lucky. you get a card you can c/f the turn with and bet the river if it checks through. MP+2 is not going to bet AQ and he may not even bet AK. However he will certainly bet his T's. which makes this an easy c/f despite UTG being a drooler most likely.

HOWEVER. what happened is this, MP2 bet with a range that crushes yours and the fish called, and he can have a T as well and again it's hard to have an A. At this point you have to assume either A) you are beat now or B) there are too many river cards that you will be put in a redic toughspot if anyone bets. Say like any river card but an A or J is a horrible river spot if ANYONE bets. but you decided to c/over call which is a horribly large mistake.

on the river you have a really easy c/f but for some reason this is difficult despite MP2 shoving into 2 people, one of which could easily have a T.


but what do i know

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flop, turn, and river = yep, agree completely with most of this. Regarding flop sizing, spr and only 100bb effective with fish means we could probably spend a lot of time debating this one. $3.50 HU with fish to the turn with $8.60 behind doesn't seem terrible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bikes

than half of this fucking subforum thinks i suck at poker.

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that's one thing i've never thought - some (self-diagnosed and described) tilt issues from time to time perhaps. You know that already though, you've seen how i describe you when you're villain in hands i post etc.

@ those who suggest folding this pre. AJs is in my open range from this position at most tables. Having a fish limping in front only rarely narrows my raising range, and probably never at a 25nl table.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bikes

...more than half of this fucking subforum thinks i suck at poker.

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WAT???!!!

Do you really think that? Because that is soooooooo not true.

Seriously.