25NL: c/c two streets good ?

Villian Stats : (VP$IP/PFR [Street Aggression] 3-bet%)

CO: 28/20 [inf inf inf] 0% over 43 hands

My Thoughts And Questions

Flat TT preflop as it should play well against his CO opening range.

Flop c/c std ? I am not folding and raise feels spewy.

Turn i would think that villian is aggro enough to barrel this card especially with my hand being under represented. c/c good ?

River hating life with another overcard and the 3 flush drops. fold is good here ? I would think its unlikey villian is bluffing this river as my hand looks like the flush draw and i would think he would check a J behind.

Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players

MP: $22.50
CO: $25.35
BTN: $31.90
Hero (SB): $36.00
BB: $19.90
UTG: $29.80

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is SB with T:heart: T:club:
2 folds, CO raises to $1, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.90, 1 fold

Flop: ($2.25) 2:club: 2:heart: 3:club: (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $1.50, Hero calls $1.50

Turn: ($5.25) J:spade: (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $3, Hero calls $3

River: ($11.25) K:club: (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $5, Hero?

i 3bet pre here as a bluff assuming that villain is positionally aware. if he calls post flop is much easier.

as played (flatting pre and c/c on a dream flop) you're essentially only making money if A) you hit your set or B) a face card doesn't show up in four tries. in other words you're not getting value often and the value you're getting OOP against a weak range isn't good

how can you 3bet bluff with TT, hope villain folds JJ/QQ PF?

do people understand the definition of a "bluff"?

I would 3bet, he is opening enough hands that we can get value from
his broadways and weaker pairs.

This is why i hate c/c c/c because the river sometimes becomes a tough decision
That turn and river hit his range ALOT
KT,KJ,KQ,AK,JT,QJ,AJ and the flush draws.
Don't see alot you beat if anything but a bluff or a pair of 99,88,77 turned into bluffs.
Fold your hand

Ok - Im not sure if this is going to make sense but Ill say it anyway and probably learn something from the response:

Quote:

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That turn and river hit his range ALOT
KT,KJ,KQ,AK,JT,QJ,AJ

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If we believe villain is capable of value betting these hands then surely we can turn our hand into a bluff profitably here because he must fold most of that stuff to a shove. we only need him to fold a little more than 50% to be profitable - I think we shoving 19 to win 16.

If we dont believe villain is value betting much of that range then all of a sudden his range is very polarised and getting 3 to 1 we surely can call profitably?

I'm not going to say whether 3betting is good or bad, b/c it depends on a lot of factors, my default is calling 77-JJ here, 3betting 22-66 (say 25% 3bet 75%fold).

but we can agree that c/c'ing the flop and turn isn't the best way to defend against the possibility of being floated?

stop using terms you don't understand

lol i meant double barrel

god forbid we'd actually have to make a semi-tough decision every now and then

I would only 3bet here if he had a wide range from the CO AND low fold to 3bet% as then i could move TT into my value range.

@bigspenda: Do you think by two c/c's are fine ?

Why not c/r this flop? We're getting value from a ton of PPs and draws while getting 6 outer overcards out of the way?

I'm the c/r frop camp. We have bumper pool and a minibar.

I'd probably call the river.

c/r is borderline spew (to the point where c/r with JJ is probably fine), c/c or lead or c/c lead turn or c/c flop/turn are all lines than successfully manipulate our opponent's action/range in a way that makes continuing with TT for multiple streets +EV

leading flop is probably best against someone like me because I'll check this flop back a lot

I never 3bet this hand preflop OOP... and especially not as a bluff, only better hands or aroud 50/50 hands call apart from 88/99.

anyways, I don't call river here. But I also do think that a C/R would be good and I would be playing for stacks on the flop. Especially seeing as villain is playing inf/inf/inf AF and I can see him doing this with much worse. I can see him putting us on draws and stuff etc too... If he calls the C/R then I barrel turn 100% of the time and if he shoves then depending on turn, I decide what to do...

I'd 3 bet pre here loads for value. This guy's been opening a pretty wide range from the stats we have so far even if these aren't too accurate with there being only 43 hands on villain.

Calling and playing a vulnerable hand oop just seems awkward to me. if we had position, I'd be more inclined to flat. Although 10,10 plays well vs his CO opening range range, oop it plays awkwardly on a lot of boards especially if villain is aggro and this somewhat negates how far ahead of his CO opening range we actually are. I'd 3 bet for value, but also be happy to see him fold. I mean it's quite conceivable that he continues to a 3 bet with worse here imo. And since we're oop, having the initiative just puts us in such a better spot.

As an example of what I mean, say he calls the 3 bet with KQs and the flop comes A 9 5r, here we can just pick it up with a c bet, If we'd flatted however we'd likely be letting him blow us of the hand when we take our a c/f flop line or c/c, c/f line. There tons of other possible situations like this involving hands he'd continue to a 3 bet with.

If villain had opened in earlier position and had tighter stats , I'd be more inclined to flat preflop.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Carroters

I'd 3 bet pre here loads for value. This guy's been opening a pretty wide range from the stats we have so far even if these aren't too accurate with there being only 43 hands on villain.

Calling and playing a vulnerable hand oop just seems awkward to me. if we had position, I'd be more inclined to flat. Although 10,10 plays well vs his CO opening range range, oop it plays awkwardly on a lot of boards especially if villain is aggro and this somewhat negates how far ahead of his CO opening range we actually are. I'd 3 bet for value, but also be happy to see him fold. I mean it's quite conceivable that he continues to a 3 bet with worse here imo. And since we're oop, having the initiative just puts us in such a better spot.

As an example of what I mean, say he calls the 3 bet with KQs and the flop comes A 9 5r, here we can just pick it up with a c bet, If we'd flatted however we'd likely be letting him blow us of the hand when we take our a c/f flop line or c/c, c/f line. There tons of other possible situations like this involving hands he'd continue to a 3 bet with.

If villain had opened in earlier position and had tighter stats , I'd be more inclined to flat preflop.

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If you're really 3betting for value you shouldn't want him to fold.

Playing OOP is not the end of the world.

If you want initiative, bet flop.

I'm not c/f many flops here, and there are cooler spots in this hand to turn TT into a bluff than preflop IMO.

I 3bet pre a lot here against this villain based on his stats.

As played pre, c/r flop can't really be standard unless you're certain villain spews by shoving overcards which you are not assuming you didn't mention it.
I also think the people advocating c/r flop are being resultsoriented by this hand.

So as played pre, c/c flop and c/c any turn, make a decision on the river, is my line. Villain seems aggressive enough to continue with air on multiple streets, so we get value with a passive line.

This is one of the shittiest rivercards so I'm c/fing. Villains betsizing doesn't exactly scream bluff either.

You can quite easily be 3 betting for value and happy to win the pot there and then at the same time. Say we 3 bet AK in the SB against an open from the CO and a call from the button for example now we're not bluffing here, but to win this pot when preflop when we're oop is still a very good result.

I'm not turning 1010 into a bluff pre just as we're not turning the Ak into a bluff in the above example. All I mean is that should we win the hand there and then - this is a good result and is probably ALMOST as good equity wise than if he calls given that we're oop - even if we're ahead of his 3 bet calling range. We don't WANT him to fold, but are still pretty much just as happy if he does since his agression coupled with us playing a vulnerable hand oop may cost us equity wise due to the amount of times we make post flop mistakes. I do think however, that our hand is easier to play with the initiative in a 3 bet pot than it is oop in a raised pot. So we';; make fewer mistakes with the initiative - extracting more moneys with the best hand and losing less with the worst hand as our percieved range is stronger and clearer - this in turn makes his range easier to read.

So the 3 bet may have more purpose than just being for value, but certainly isn't a bluff sicne we think we are ahead of his calling range. We have limited options on every street in poker and have to find the best one, sometiomes because of multiple reasons, so limiting yourself to thinknig in terms of "value = cry if he folds" is pretty basic and harmful to your game imo.