Two horrible hands - yeuch!

First one, villain seemed like a mediocre tagg verging on lagg but at 10nl playing 30% or less is reasonably tight. Sample = 82 hands.

So i call because i wanted to try playing KK different. Wanted to call so he'd put KK out of my range. Could be some great value to be had if i disguise the hand. So i put his range on QQ, KK or AA. I raise the flop rather than shove as i'd rather lose half a buy-in than a full buy-in, this way i can sniff out if he has AK. His 4bet tells me he has QQ because AA would think *i* had QQ doing making such a raise. And QQ WOULD be in my 3bet calling range.

29.27/24.39/3

$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG alonco1 ($12.45)
CO Jogi3636 ($10.45)
BTN Hero ($10.10)
SB LEADER_M777 ($10.00)
BB MrGreenyt ($9.60)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 5 players) Hero is BTN
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, LEADER_M777 calls $0.25, MrGreenyt raises to $0.90, Hero calls $0.60, LEADER_M777 folds

Flop: ($2.10, 2 players)
MrGreenyt bets $1.10, Hero raises to $3.50, MrGreenyt raises to $5.90, Hero folds

Final Pot: $9.10

MrGreenyt wins $11.05 ( won +$4.25 )
LEADER_M777 lost -$0.30
Hero lost -$4.40

------------------------------------------

second hand... i don't think i need any feedback here, just to share a VERY awkward situation. Unless i DID play the hand badly, maybe i shouldn't have played it at all? or raise the flop? I did have 4:1 on the flop to call, hated having to do it but the math told me to.

$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG Roothluss ($32.55)
UTG+1 Jogi3636 ($11.70)
CO Hero ($13.65)
BTN Xalemm ($6.00)
SB Spooky-Gun ($10.70)
BB MrGreenyt ($10.00)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 6 players) Hero is CO
1 fold, Jogi3636 calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.40, Xalemm calls $0.40, Spooky-Gun calls $0.35, MrGreenyt calls $0.30, Jogi3636 calls $0.30

Flop: ($2, 5 players)
Spooky-Gun bets $1, MrGreenyt calls $1, 1 fold, Hero calls $1, Xalemm raises to $3, Spooky-Gun folds, MrGreenyt folds, Hero folds

Final Pot: $6

Xalemm wins $7.75 ( won +$4.35 )
Spooky-Gun lost -$1.40
MrGreenyt lost -$1.40
Jogi3636 lost -$0.40
Hero lost -$1.40

1) You're really putting him on QQ+/AK? If he's that tight I would think 4bet pre to maximize value from AK because he misses a lot and QQ isn't getting away.

Just flat the flop. Not stacking off as played seems terrible.

2) Raise more pre, 0.50
Calling getting 4:1 is fine (first time)
Folding getting 4:1 sucks (second time)

hand 1: don't get tricky with KK preflop and then complain that you got pushed off of it on the flop

hand 2: raise the flop. there's so much dead money to be had and you're not going to be 3bet in this spot very often unless they have like 87s or a set or are getting tricky with a premium pair. you can fire another barrel at a J or a diamond and check behind on just about any other card (including an A, T or 6).

Originally Posted by wonderland

So i put his range on QQ, KK or AA.

Did you do this preflop or postflop?

why are you bluffing with KK on a Q64 flop?

I don't mind calling the flop and calling the raise as well your implied odds are hudge especially someone else has a big hand or drawing to the same flush
just don't call a shove if you turn an ace

1. Jesus why would you fold, flatting is fine, raising/getting it in is fine but 2b/f is awful

2. Raise more preflop, and again, why would you ever fold? You're getting 4:1, if an A is good you have pot odds to call, that's not even considering implied odds or the possibility that your opponent has a smaller flush draw or that a 9 might be good as well in which case you should raise.

Not sure what you mean about odds to call the raise on hand 2. I'm getting $3 on top of a $5 pot, which isn't 4:1 although implied odds help because this hand isn't exaclty NOT getting it all in at some point. But i only get to see one card here. If i call and miss and check, he's shoving.

Plus we don't know if the other players are going to shove over. There's 2 more villains in a rather hot pot. I've never even seen a hand go down like this before.

How many say call and how many say raise the turn?

KK hand, i'm not sure, i get three bet so much that, i guess i put him on JJ+ AK and at worst AQ. That said, i had no idea of his 3bet range. I always freak if i see any broadways in a 3bet pot coz people are 3betting JJ+ as well as ol' AK. All i know, pretty much for a fact is, players at 10nl, with the exception of rare uber fish, do NOT 4bet with TPTK EVER and will SOMEtimes do it with pocket overpair like AA. I find it's usually me that can't put down aces, although i've put a stop to that recently.

When i do my appraisal of 10nl i was state quite firmly and with authority that: people don't raise large amounts/4bet large amounts without AT LEAST top 2 pair. Usually more. I've ignored this at my peril a few too many times.

In hand 2 you're calling $2 in to an $8 pot. 4:1

Your description of hand 2:
I'm trying to hero fold KK.

Originally Posted by wonderland

When i do my appraisal of 10nl i was state quite firmly and with authority that: people don't raise large amounts/4bet large amounts without AT LEAST top 2 pair. Usually more. I've ignored this at my peril a few too many times.

Full Tilt Poker Game #13045516343: Table Tomsik (6 max) - $0.05/$0.10 - Pot Limit Hold'em - 17:01:17 ET - 2009/06/26
Seat 1: davidh99 ($10)
Seat 2: phqu88 ($5.47)
Seat 3: steel120 ($4.92)
Seat 4: surviva316 ($20.30)
Seat 5: DeAtH oR GLoRyS ($20.41)
Seat 6: cornbreadmofo ($4.58)
surviva316 posts the small blind of $0.05
DeAtH oR GLoRyS posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to surviva316 [Qs Ad]
cornbreadmofo folds
davidh99 folds
phqu88 calls $0.10
steel120 calls $0.10
surviva316 raises to $0.50
DeAtH oR GLoRyS calls $0.40
phqu88 calls $0.40
steel120 folds
*** FLOP *** [Qc 3d As]
surviva316 has 15 seconds left to act
surviva316 bets $0.80
DeAtH oR GLoRyS raises to $2
phqu88 folds
surviva316 has 15 seconds left to act
surviva316 calls $1.20
*** TURN *** [Qc 3d As] [2c]
surviva316 has 15 seconds left to act
surviva316 bets $4
DeAtH oR GLoRyS raises to $8.80
surviva316 has 15 seconds left to act
surviva316 raises to $17.80, and is all in
DeAtH oR GLoRyS calls $9
surviva316 shows [Qs Ad]
DeAtH oR GLoRyS shows [Ah 8h]
*** RIVER *** [Qc 3d As 2c] [5c]
surviva316 shows two pair, Aces and Queens
DeAtH oR GLoRyS shows a pair of Aces
surviva316 wins the pot ($39.20) with two pair, Aces and Queens
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $41.20 | Rake $2
Board: [Qc 3d As 2c 5c]
Seat 1: davidh99 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: phqu88 folded on the Flop
Seat 3: steel120 (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 4: surviva316 (small blind) showed [Qs Ad] and won ($39.20) with two pair, Aces and Queens
Seat 5: DeAtH oR GLoRyS (big blind) showed [Ah 8h] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 6: cornbreadmofo didn't bet (folded)

people don't do what with huh now? people are capable of doing anything at any limit, and that's where reads come in. i would not usually stack off 200bb's with top two, but i also don't generalize my opponents as "some 10NL villain"

capable yes, but this guy is probably a one buy-in fish. Such fish are rare or i'd have cleared 10 by now.

Originally Posted by wonderland

Such fish are rare or i'd have cleared 10 by now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKTiwCez6Zs&feature=fvst

next time you play, just single table and watch every hand and every showdown, then come back and tell me about how rare these fish are. lord knows i haven't built my bankroll from nits and TAgg regs

I get that you guys want to get better and move up, so you try and understand ranges, merging, polarizing and all the other poker situations that need to be learned. can you seriously start paying more attention to your opponents and less to what your doing? This is fucking $10NL and you got 3bet with KK, just 4 bet and get it in. This is not a spot to get tricky and your losing buyins in value playing this way.

Both of these hands are pretty pitiful. Come into IRC so we can work on the obvious issues in your game in a real time manner since the forum format doesn't seem to be doing you much good.

Originally Posted by wonderland

capable yes, but this guy is probably a one buy-in fish. Such fish are rare or i'd have cleared 10 by now.

No, the reason you haven't gotten past 10nl is that you play like shit, but it's okay because so does everyone else, myself included. Just don't lie to yourself.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Originally Posted by wonderland

capable yes, but this guy is probably a one buy-in fish. Such fish are rare or i'd have cleared 10 by now.

No, the reason you haven't gotten past 10nl is that you play like shit, but it's okay because so does everyone else, myself included. Just don't lie to yourself.

+1

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Originally Posted by wonderland

capable yes, but this guy is probably a one buy-in fish. Such fish are rare or i'd have cleared 10 by now.

No, the reason you haven't gotten past 10nl is that you play like shit, but it's okay because so does everyone else, myself included. Just don't lie to yourself.

+1

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Originally Posted by wonderland

capable yes, but this guy is probably a one buy-in fish. Such fish are rare or i'd have cleared 10 by now.

No, the reason you haven't gotten past 10nl is that you play like shit, but it's okay because so does everyone else, myself included. Just don't lie to yourself.

+1

And how the fuck you don't just shove over on the flop is beyond me.

I know why your losing so much and Spoon is right, get in IRC.


Also on what you said here

Originally Posted by wonderland

KK hand, i'm not sure, i get three bet so much that, i guess i put him on JJ+ AK and at worst AQ

Do you have any idea how wrong this sentence is and why you played that hand atrociously?

spoooon! yes, deffo IRC, i've missed that shit.

thanks folks. Although please don't think this is how i play KK, it isn't, i 4bet every time, it's just that someone on here, in response to me saying i'm not getting paid coz of nits, suggested i flat with the odd big hand. So i was just trying it on for size, but like jyms said, i should just leave off that stuff.

although i will put my cock on the chopping block and say that 10nl is far more tricky than i had thought at times. i've gone between 5 and 10 on and off over the last two months and the difference in play is pretty significant.

will take someone's hand off if they reach out with some tuitional advice though!!! IRC it is.

man loves.

edit: did i mention this already? but i recently started 2-tabling and found some good results. Was 6-tabling for a while. Just really focusing. Good stuff. Although i do get massively impatient if i lose a wee chunk.

The flatting the 3bet with KK isn't the terrible part. Sure 4betting is fine, and is likely ideal against a tight 3betting range, such as you will likely find at 10nl, since if he is 3betting QQ+, AK, you have the equity needed with KK and he isn't getting away from QQ/AK usually. But he can get away from AK/QQ postflop on bad flops.

The bad part if raising the flop. If his range truly is QQ+, AK, then why raise, and let him fold AK, and continue only when you are beat (or tied)? If his range is wider, then I can understand raising for value, but raising to fold when he puts the money in is bad here. If you expect to be able to raise for value, then you expect hands like KQ/AQ to be in his range that will stackoff. If you don't suspect those hands are (1) in his range or (2) going to continue to a raise, then raising is bad here.

The bad part if raising the flop. If his range truly is QQ+, AK, then why raise, and let him fold AK, and continue only when you are beat (or tied)? If his range is wider, then I can understand raising for value, but raising to fold when he puts the money in is bad here. If you expect to be able to raise for value, then you expect hands like KQ/AQ to be in his range that will stackoff. If you don't suspect those hands are (1) in his range or (2) going to continue to a raise, then raising is bad here.

This makes the most sense actually. And directly points out the flaw in my play. So here was my thought process (which is incorrect but just being honest):

I get 3 bet and i often suspect, coz it happens a lot, that it could be light, especially if i've been seen to open a few hands in a row which perhaps i had at this stage.

I call thinking that i could get a lot of value from JJ and QQ especially AK on a Kh flop. They wouldn't put KK in my range, fine it's flawed. So whenever i do this, i invariable see a broadway and panic, thinking they've hit a set. So i see the queen and he bets, i sense perhaps some weakness in the bet but figure if i just call i'll still face a large bet on the turn so i raise to narrow his range down. If he calls he likely has AQ, or maybe AK. If he raises he has likely AA or QQ. I really can't see the ranges being anything other than that. Don't put him on KK coz he should know that people at this stake on stars take the line of - call 3bet, raise dryish flop - with a set like a vast majority of the time. And me knowing that people only 4bet with similar hands, AA or QQQ, have to lay down.

So, there's method to my madness but i really should have floated and actually got it all in pre. If i'm brutally honest, i'm a bit nitty and fear AA pre in these spots. And it makes sense coz lately i've been rather disheartened, and to lose a stack would suck more than usual. Now that is shit thinking, but i'm just being honest about my poker process at this stage early in my career. I'm not gonna lie. Hence i'm gonna finish this month then take it real easy next month.

There is a method to your madness.. Just an incorrect method. I highly suggest instead of trying to justify your play, instead analyze why the more experienced players are saying your logic is flawed. By doing this maybe you can start to understand the situations more wholeheartedly, which inevitably leads to thinking in a more correct form. And once you can begin to think correctly about spots, and understand theory, etc, that's when the decisions will become more clear, and those decisions will be correct more often.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Originally Posted by wonderland

capable yes, but this guy is probably a one buy-in fish. Such fish are rare or i'd have cleared 10 by now.

No, the reason you haven't gotten past 10nl is that you play like shit, but it's okay because so does everyone else, myself included. Just don't lie to yourself.

+1aments.

Originally Posted by wonderland

If i'm brutally honest, i'm a bit nitty and fear AA pre in these spots.

That is nitty. If you have KK and there's an AA out there, then bye bye stack. This will happen only 1 time in 24 when you have kings, and even then if you get it AI pre you have a 20% chance of stacking him. At 10nl, you are losing value, if you are even thinking about getting away from AA. You want to be AI pre with KK against the AK, A7s, QQ, JT, TT and 52s rubbish they will show down.

Originally Posted by linaker

Originally Posted by wonderland

If i'm brutally honest, i'm a bit nitty and fear AA pre in these spots.

That is nitty. If you have KK and there's an AA out there, then bye bye stack. This will happen only 1 time in 24 when you have kings, and even then if you get it AI pre you have a 20% chance of stacking him. At 10nl, you are losing value, if you are even thinking about getting away from AA. You want to be AI pre with KK against the AK, A7s, QQ, JT, TT and 52s rubbish they will show down.

REally interested in where this number came from?

Originally Posted by jyms

Originally Posted by linaker

Originally Posted by wonderland

If i'm brutally honest, i'm a bit nitty and fear AA pre in these spots.

That is nitty. If you have KK and there's an AA out there, then bye bye stack. This will happen only 1 time in 24 when you have kings, and even then if you get it AI pre you have a 20% chance of stacking him. At 10nl, you are losing value, if you are even thinking about getting away from AA. You want to be AI pre with KK against the AK, A7s, QQ, JT, TT and 52s rubbish they will show down.

REally interested in where this number came from?

From HoH 1, page 241. Should have made it clear this is at a full table tho.

Originally Posted by jyms

REally interested in where this number came from?

somebody really needs to come into irc more often :P

1 - (1 - 4/50x3/49)^x

where x is the # of players