Thoughts on "junk"

Intuitively, shouldn't every card preflop have roughly the same likelihood to hit the board? We all have stories of aces getting cracked etc.

I guess my thoughts are playing a junk hand for cheap is at times a good move, whether for bluff value or to hit a big hand when it is not expected. If AK or something scary hits the board obviously you are out, but if you played unlikely cards but caught a nice, unexpected piece of the board, that should set you up for a nice pot.

Is my thinking wrong on this, or too -EV long term to be viable?

Sure, every hand has a chance to hit the board, but with a hand like 42o, even if you do hit the board, there's a ton of hands that you're still behind. Unless you nail that rainbow straight, which isn't going to happen very often, you're probably paying preflop to fold post-flop. With bigger hands you still might be ahead even if you missed the board (AK, or even better those high pairs), where as with 42o, that's highly unlikely. Even in the event you do hit that one hand, it's doubtful you'll make enough off it to make up for all the times you wasted money not hitting it.

There is value in playing "junk", but only with solid reads, and typically against tight players where you can avoid a showdown.

Originally Posted by The Professor

Intuitively, shouldn't every card preflop have roughly the same likelihood to hit the board?

When my AJ hits an A and your 84 hits an 8 I win.
When my AJ hits an A and your 84 misses I win.
When my AJ misses and your 84 misses I win.
When my AJ misses and your 84 hits an 8 you win.

4 possibilities, high cards win 3/4.

Originally Posted by The Professor

I guess my thoughts are playing a junk hand for cheap is at times a good move,

A lot of people think so but I'd reckon almost every winning player on this board would advise you otherwise.

Originally Posted by The Professor

whether for bluff value

Don't bluff, bad players are too stupid to fold and good players know your bluffing and call.

Originally Posted by The Professor

or to hit a big hand when it is not expected.

This probably wont happen often enough to make it profitable except if you really know what your doing.

Originally Posted by The Professor

too -EV long term to be viable?

Yep. I think so.

If you want too play low cards for cheap play suited connectors for their flush/straight value. SC's are complicated to play though so don't bother unless you really feel the need. I fold them.

Search for a post by AOKrongly called "Small blind is a sucker punch station".

every card has an equal chance of hitting the board, but cards outrank each other.

ignoring straights and flushes, i have AKo, you have 75o. both all-in

possibilities are:
a 7 comes, no A or K - you win
a 5 comes, no A or K - you win
a 7 comes AND and A or K comes - i win
a 5 falls, AND an A or K comes - i win
an A falls, no 7 or 5 - i win
a K fall, no 7 or 5 - i win

a very simplified example, but basically the ranking of cards means that even thoiugh your card is as likely to come out as mine is, on some occasions both ouf our cards will come, and i will still win

that in itself gives a large edge

also consider the "counterfeit" situation where your pair of 3's become useless because the board pairs higher than that. the other day i went all in with AK on a board of 443... my opp had 23 and called. I won because the turn and river were both Jacks, so his 3s were irrelevant.

Finally, not all hands go to all in situations, and the threat of higher ranked cards makes playing rags very difficult.

Thanks for the feedback - naturally I'm not playing 74o or similar junk in the face of stiff raises. Every now and then I'll limp it from SB if I'm fairly certain no raise is behind me, or if I'm "lucky" I get it in BB unraised to me.

I suppose I should have qualified my inital comments, but I appreciate the feedback all the same.

Originally Posted by The Professor

Thanks for the feedback - naturally I'm not playing 74o or similar junk in the face of stiff raises. Every now and then I'll limp it from SB

I suppose I should have qualified my inital comments.

Still doesn't qualify IMHO. I fold ATs in SB.

Depending on the table, I have been known to play a very wide range of hands. The better you know your opponents, the more hands you can play. The better you become postflop, the more hands you can play. I make a lot of the junk I play +EV because I'm almost always right about when it's time to steal the pot after the flop, or when I'm simply ahead. If you have AK on a JT8 board, I will come over the top of you with 78o for instance. If you can't picture yourself doing that when you're ahead, then rags aren't for you.

I feel like it's dangerous to mention, because the worst thing a new player can do is open up their range. I advice strongly against it. It can get you into a lot of trouble if you haven't developed a postflop game yet.

Here's a direct quote from the "newbie circle of death"

Phase V: Here come the swings...
Since my skills are so awesome, I guess I can see a little more flops, and just fold if I don't hit 2 pair or better. Didn't you just see that 722 flop? Sometimes you gotta play garbage just for the slim chance of hitting that monster... I mean it only costs some change so see the flop anyway. Everyone else and their momma is limping in and catching miracle cards, aren't I wasting a ton of opportunities if I'm folding 70% of my cards before the flop? You play on for a few days, winning some, and loosing some, but your bankroll isn't growing anymore. Oh well, it's just that variance thing, the poker gods will be back on my side in no time.

This is exactly what happens when you play rags without a strong postflop game.

I have a story to share......I was playing a Live cash game in the casino....there were 5 ppl sitting, I was at the table for almost an two hours. I was close to tilting because I was getting really good starting hands (alot of them too) but could never hit on the flop. I was loosing lots of cash with all the PF raises. I didnt know what would change my luck so I started playing rags. (I dont usually for obvious reasons) but the rags started hitting.....and hitting hard at that. I eventually won all my money back plus around half my buy in. That was fine, but the downside was at the table....everytime I was called with rags, but won the hand...the old "FISH" term was thrown around alot. I have been playing Live for quite some time and believe I am not the "FISH" they thought I was. I just changed my game a bit when I saw playing only the strong starters was not helping. Not saying you should start playing rags, but changing up your game every once and a while wont hurt that much either.

Originally Posted by xBULLETTSx

That was fine, but the downside was at the table....everytime I was called with rags, but won the hand...the old "FISH" term was thrown around alot.

Allowing opponents to think you're a fish is +EV.

lol........I know.......I got alot of callers due to that fact. So when I did get the AA, KK hands they paid off WELL.................

As the game goes on and I develop reads, I open up my hand selection, but that's because I'm extremely aggressive and willing to live and die by my post flop game.

The simple truth of the matter is that if you choose weaker hands, you make the game harder than it has to be. You open up a variety of post flop situations with a 74 that you don't see with AA, and every hand fromt here on out becomes more difficult.

If you've reached a level of comfort that you don't mind facing these decisions, then you can open up your game... if you choose.

There's nothing wrong at all with the old "Tight is Right" credo. It's the standard because it's worked for years.

I don't recommend beginners open up their hand selection consciously too much. It kind of happens naturally as you develop confidence in your game... no need to push the envelope.

And as an aside... I often have to step back and tighten up when my aggressive nature gets me in trouble, so it has its side effects.

Originally Posted by Fortune 500

As the game goes on and I develop reads, I open up my hand selection, but that's because I'm extremely aggressive and willing to live and die by my post flop game.

The simple truth of the matter is that if you choose weaker hands, you make the game harder than it has to be. You open up a variety of post flop situations with a 74 that you don't see with AA, and every hand fromt here on out becomes more difficult.

If you've reached a level of comfort that you don't mind facing these decisions, then you can open up your game... if you choose.

There's nothing wrong at all with the old "Tight is Right" credo. It's the standard because it's worked for years.

I don't recommend beginners open up their hand selection consciously too much. It kind of happens naturally as you develop confidence in your game... no need to push the envelope.

Quoted for truth. I'd like to add that making the game more difficult for yourself is the eventual path one must take to improve their overall game. I wanted to be in tight situations with close decisions. I reasoned that if I didn't, surely I wouldn't be equipped to beat higher stakes when the time comes.

you have 67s, the board comes 46J, fellow preflop limper leads out for 3/4 pot, your move?

let's say you raise from 3/4 pot to 3 times the pot, and he reraises you back. was it worth all that money to find out you're beat?

even in position, 67s, 46J board, you lead out for 3/4 pot, he calls. now what? is it really worth another bet here?

you won't flop a stronger hand enough to get paid enough.

limping sucks. though, it sucks less from the sb.

dont complete the blind without a good hand AND several limpers. Almost all other times you should be raising your good hands, and folding your bad ones.

You can play 63o and 94s from the small blind two times in a row and play in horrible posistion with a dangerous hand for the same price that you can play 97s from late posision.

One way loses a lot of money(played correctly), the other makes you money (played correctly)

Playing weak hands is someting to think about from the BEST posisions, not what you do from the worse posision.

And I'd rather play 96s 1 time in late posistion than 2 time in the SB anyway... You can do both for exactly the same price, and from late position you have a much better chance of making a profit.

limping sucks. though, it sucks less from the sb.

I disagree, it's FAR worse from the small blind, not better.

The problem isnt the .5BB, the problem is when you have the second best hand.

when you have 63 and the flop is 337...

In early posistion, Many hands will take your stack.
77
A3
K3
Q3
J3
T3
93
83
73

If you are in late posistion, you could probally be able to save most of your stack against every one of thoes hands...

Originally Posted by The Professor

I guess my thoughts are playing a junk hand for cheap is at times a good move, whether for bluff value or to hit a big hand when it is not expected. If AK or something scary hits the board obviously you are out, but if you played unlikely cards but caught a nice, unexpected piece of the board, that should set you up for a nice pot.

As everyone's pointed out, you don't hit great hands often enough to make junk worth playing. Now hands with good implied odds eg suited connectors from late position when there are a lot of other limpers is a different proposition, but I don't think that's what you were asking.

Another thing that hasn't yet been mentioned in this thread - newbies often ask about loosening up their hand requirements because they are desparate to make BIG money ie take down the big pots and destack other players. A win rate of 5BB/100 at a 0.05/0.1 game is only 50 cents - not much to show for a long session. No, they want to be taking down the $$$ BUT, 5BB/100 is great when you're starting off and learning about discipline, TAG play etc. The mony is irrelevent at this stage. Keep playing GOOD poker and the money will eventually roll in.

You can't run before you can walk. Similarly, you won't take home the big money until you've learnt to grind out the small change consistently.

Playing rags you typically shouldn't is never right in limit, however, at certain types of very loose no-limit tables, it can give you a little extra profit. Occassionally, I play the .01/.02 $2NL at paradise just for the fun of it. I end up seeing over 50% of flops and will typically profit in the range of 20-40 BB/100 for a session. Why can I play so loosely and still have a huge rate? It all has to do with the betting dynamics of the table. And the $2NL at paradise, almost every table is the same:
-7+ on average to see the flop (note that I am playing much tighter than my opponents)
-preflop raises tend to be in one of 3 categories ... the min-raise, 5-10xbb, or 20xbb-allin. (this is important ... more on this below)
-postflop betting typically ignores pot size ... with a strong hand like TPTK, a typical player may bet .20, whether the pot be .10 or 1.00.
-many players will call down with any pair or better

All of these together make playing rags cheaper. Since so many see the flop, there is already more money in the pot to play for ... this is obvious, but is not enough to justify playing a hand like 83o. The reason one can play almost any 2 cards in the right situation is the other 3 points I listed. Basically, at this type of table, the blinds are .01/.02, but the betting apart from the blinds is more like a .03/.06 or .04/.08 table. This means that if you can see a flop for only the price of the big blind, it is like seeing it for the price of 1/4 to 1/3 of the big blind at a higher game like $25NL.

The preflop betting typical to these tables helps because the bets tend to be either too small or too big. If you limp your 83o on the CO, you will typically either get minraised or or raised 5xbb or more. This is good because you can definitely call a min-raise, and definitely fold to the big raise. Rarely will you have the tough decision of a 2-3xbb raise.

The post flop betting patterns of these tables help because people really don't pay attention to the size of the pot. You can make the nut straight with your 74o and bet .20 for 2xpot and get called by several players who may have no more than a single overcard to the board. And due to the fourth point above, they will call subsequently larger bets on the turn and river if they have made a pair or better.

Due to the dynamics of such a table, you may be laid odds of 30-40:1 on your .02 bet preflop. Any hand is worth playing in that type of situation. But you only get that type of advantage by playing your rags at the correct times. You must be very aware of position. The worst of rags (and by the worst I mean about the bottom third of hands) cannot be played earlier than CO, and should almost never be played if there is a preflop raise or less than 4 limpers. An additional and very important condition for playing rags is that none of the players yet to act are raise-happy maniacs. If the one of the 2 or 3 players to your left will raise preflop about 20+%, then you just can't use this strategy ... you will put your 2cents in and end up folding too often.

A final note ... playing rags like this is fun and profitable at the right tables. But it is not a strategy for making money at anything but a table full of very bad players. Even at the $10NL, you will lose your ass playing like this. It's all about the math. The worst of hands need a large overlay to be profitable ... if you can't get better than a 20:1 expected return on a bet, you will lose money. It is a rare table that you can get laid these odds.

Ways to win with rags...

- Your opponent misses you steal postflop
- Your opponent misses you hit a pair and price him out
- Your opponent hits, but he's scared by overs or coordination
- You hit a monster and get payed

Ways to lose with rags...

- You miss your opponent hits
- You both hit and you're too stupid to fold
- You pay too much to draw
- You're against a calling station who draws out

The BIGGEST problem with playing rags is a habitual misenterpretation of fold equity. Either yours or your opponents. By your opponents I mean you should fold but you don't. BAD READS. If you get good reads, you can mix it up more, because you'll never lose a hand to a scared opponent.

As other have indicated, opening up your hand selection can and does make money later on. But it is not just playing rags/junk. It is playing some extra selected hands in selected positions with certain table conditions that make them profitable. For a beginner I suggest you play lots of hands before even thinking about it. For me it was 6 months of play (and I play 3-4 hrs a night). By that time you start to get an idea of what those hands are and what positions and what table conditions work.

I haven't read all the replies, but I think two things:

Rond is probably right,whatever he said

and

the time to start playing junk is when you stop needing to ask when to play junk. it's a valid question, but the answer, since you asked, is not yet.

Originally Posted by drmcboy

the time to start playing junk is when you stop needing to ask when to play junk. it's a valid question, but the answer, since you asked, is not yet.

Right on

Thanks for the tips...I've been experimenting, and as expected the rags are just that...rags. However, I am finding them useful against donks bigger than myself when it's heads up.