Still Unconvinced Re: Aggression in Micro-stakes

A few of you will remember how I squawked about the usefulness of pre-flop aggression, and aggression in general, when I was known as Jiggus. I believe that I finally can put some evidence behind my hunch. Playing the same limits with two different styles has netted me rather divergent results.

My theory is that at loose, passive, very low limit ($10 NL) tables, full of inexperienced players, with a few "sharks" here and there, PF aggression and bullying thereafter will only get you into trouble. Yes, I've won more pots, but lost a lot more money. I can steal a lot of little pots with aggression, but the downside is getting trapped for big losses periodically. The one does not offset the other.

My results thus far at Full Tilt ($10 NL):

Hands: 22,500
VPIP: 16.55
PFR%: 7.26
Total AF: 2.09
BB/100: -1.43

My results at Paradise ($10NL):

Hands: 33,880
VPIP: 15.21
PFR%: 3.31
Total AF: 1.66
BB/100: 5.47

I am looking forward to hearing from winning players at the same limits who use an aggressive technique. If it works for you, tell me how, please. Where could I be going wrong? Or, perhaps, my theory is valid.

Many thanks.

I play mostly $10 NL on bodog and I have had similar experiences. I think it is because I have not learned post flop play very well yet. I find a moderate amount of aggression helps me win small pots, but like you I tend to get burnt once in awhile so I have been working on folding when I think I might be behind, and not just look at my hand. This is progressing very slowly but I think I am making progress. Still I have watched other players who are very aggressive with fantastic win rates although the samples are not huge. One player I admire is pretty aggressive like around 20/7 /7 and his win rate is about 4 times better than mine over 900 hands that Poker edge has tracked on him. I think being aggressive at the right times is crucial and the thing I need to do to get to the next level. I have slowly worked my aggression factor up slightly.

i wouldnt say i use an "aggressive technique," but i DO think your numbers may be misleading. you are on two different sites. one has a reputation as "tough," and the other has a much softer reputation.

play 22k hands at FTP and strive for the same "passivity," then check your results again. i think you are somewhat comparing apples to oranges, as of now.

not that 25k hands is a large enough sample to prove squat, imo.

that was from a purely scientific/mathematical philosophy.

however, from intuition...

i think that tightish-passive-aggressive is the way to go, at lower stakes. see flops cheaply, or to a small raise, and BLAST the pot when you hit, slow-playing VERY rarely, bluffing almost never. and dropping almost everything to obvious aggression. you WILL get paid off.

however, once you have a handle on the more passive approach, i think you can "open up your game" a bit more. and by that i mean open your LIMPING range, not your raising range. if you get to 25%vpip, 7%pfr, and 3ishAF i think you are playing all sorts of decent "crap" for cheap...allowing you to maximize the TAGGY nits, as well as, keep the maniacal "throw caution to the wind" gambooolers paying off your premiums. just do it from position, and "hide" behind other limpers with your "trash." and by "trash" i mean suited connectors, small pp's, and suited gappers, with the occasional off-suit no gapper like 9T+ mixed in off the button.

just my .02

I think you are wrong. as long as you realize that playing "aggressive" does not necessarily mean playing trash you should not have a problem playing an aggressive style at microstakes games.

Most bluffs arent worthwhile at the lower limits, but that isnt to say that bluffing should be out the window. You just need to pick your opponents. There are weak-tight players at microstakes too, so bet into them. There are more calling stations too, so bet into them with a hand.

To the Poker Player formerly known as Jiggus: I had the same experience as you did at the mico/low stakes. Basically, you need to build a pot when you have the best hand and rarely bluff. ABC poker is the most profitable. Players are not aware enough at that level so bluffing does nothing for your future income in terms of building an image.

I almost never bluff, and only then when I am heads up with someone who has shown weakness.

I would agree that playing tight/passive/aggressive is the way forward at this limit, because that's what my experience has shown.

FTP is not a tough site. These reputations are usually just myths. Paradise was known as a very tough site a few years ago. No one plays there now, I think, though.

I would say, that 20,000 hands is a pretty good sample that the strategy being tried is not working.

I am now going to try to be much more selective at PFR's (no more raising 55 and 44 from any position, for example) and see how that will work out. Over a couple of thousand hands, that strategy seems to be more profitable at this level.

What is most discouraging is that this experiment has really been a negative experience, whereas the passive style was undeniably profitable.

it may not be the strategy itself (i.e. playing more aggressive) but the implementation of the strategy.

There is a place for passive play in certain situations, but for the most part selective aggression will win out. Unless the deck is slapping you in the face.

The problem I see is that most microstakes players will not be aggressive enough to make a passive strategy worthwhile. It may win, but it probably leaves a lot of chips on the table. Table selection would be key here though.

Originally Posted by pgil

The problem I see is that most microstakes players will not be aggressive enough to make a passive strategy worthwhile. It may win, but it probably leaves a lot of chips on the table. Table selection would be key here though.

not sure i understand the contradiction here. how can a "passive" need to be aggressive to make a PASSIVE strategy work...???

imo, you should be calling more raises with AK, not 3-betting them down here. limping/calling with pp's lower than TT, and playing for set value alone, unless late position..on a passive table. limping with AJ or folding to a raise with AQ instead of calling. you may 3-bet these very selectively, but, as a whole, throw them out to raises. YOU bring them in for raises when first in, but toss them in the face of one, and limp quite often behind other limpers...instead of trying to "thin the field." you need to see cheap flops, and lots of them, even with some so-called premium holdings. do i ever limp AA? NO!!!!! AK? once i a hundred times dealt. JJ? NO!!!! AQ? NO!!!! your power cards get raised...ALWAYS. you have too much equity before seeing cards. but, in a multi-way hand, chill out on trying to weed out junk. it wont work well down here, just save the money and call to see what the flop brings. then, BET THE STINK OUT OF IT, and trap the hands you now dominate. again, no one can let go of TP.

things like that will win at lower levels, and make you more passive pre-slop. then, when the slop hits...no more thinking, BET, BET, BET, until played back at.

however, at higher levels, and you dont have to go much higher to see it, these "passive strategies" will get the shit kicked out of you. at 25, you will see these dont work as much, and at 50, you will get abused for this, imo. 100 is prolly not much tougher than 50, but 200...now you're up with a lot more "thinkers." you play passively, you better expect to get "tested" with bets and raises consistently.

agressive is good, but u have to know when to fold. raise and 3 or 4 callers, don't bluff, be wary of aggression on one of them if you hit. watch for draws. frankly passive poker is BOOOORING

Originally Posted by Chopper

Originally Posted by pgil

The problem I see is that most microstakes players will not be aggressive enough to make a passive strategy worthwhile. It may win, but it probably leaves a lot of chips on the table. Table selection would be key here though.

not sure i understand the contradiction here. how can a "passive" need to be aggressive to make a PASSIVE strategy work...???

what I mean is that at a passive table, people aren't going to be betting into you, so playing passively yourself will lead to many small pots with big hands. this is bad. If you are at an aggressive table, playing a passive strategy may work as someone other than you will be driving the betting.

folding AQ to a raise against opponents who overvalue A5 is bad. Folding AQ to a raise and a reraise is good. But get in there with your big aces because most of your opps are playing bad aces like they are good and good aces like they are great.

ps. sorry about the double post

Have fun never playing above $25NL with those stats.

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Have fun never playing above $25NL with those stats.

no offense, spenda, but we are not all here to turn pro. or make a living. for some of us, it's a hobby. playing at stakes you cannot win, or playing over your head is VERY -EV.

Originally Posted by pgil

folding AQ to a raise against opponents who overvalue A5 is bad. Folding AQ to a raise and a reraise is good. But get in there with your big aces because most of your opps are playing bad aces like they are good and good aces like they are great.

ps. sorry about the double post

i understand your first point. thank you for the clarification. you are absolutely correct. and a good player will "adjust" to the texture of the table. i know you know that, too.

about AQ. i believe at the lowest levels, it is -EV to call any raise if you will be "gambooling" post flop...not sure of where you stand. and the passive opponents you find here will not raise even TPTK, in some cases. thereby, NEVER telling you where you stand in the hand. calling raises is BAD!

doing the raising, however, and following through will string along those weaker aces. and, the passives WILL play back at you when they hit their 2 pair and such. therefore, raising first in with stronger aces is VERY +EV.

i believe it better to chuck the hands you will not be confident in pre-flop, and pounding the hands where you take the initiative early on. that keeps losses and suckouts down to a minimum. not that they can be avoided, just down to a minimum. and at smaller stakes, that alone is an accomplishment. in no way do i think these "tips" work even 2 levels higher. i am just trying to provide experienced advice to beginners trying to figure out the micros when they see the advice in the books going bad. the advice works, dont get me wrong, but you can do better with minor tweaks.

youre understimating the short term effects of running good/bad.
The dise is MUCH easier than full tilt. Aggression is ok, but its learning to use it effectivly that matters.
You are STILL too results orientated. Ok so sometimes you win sometimes you dont, but its the method you/i/he/she uses to get to the end product that matters more than the results as playing correctly leads to profit$$$$$$.

Post more hands, read more books on beating small stakes games, move to sites with better games (if possible)

Id play a predictable range at small stakes games, and simply try to play each hand flawlessly. You dont need to raise 98s UTG or call raises with 98s to beat these games, but you need to understand how you cards play against the mindset of those you are playing with.

Get some HH's and lets see where you win big pots and lose big ones.

You can be a winner up to 100nl with those stats, just not a good one.

paradise is a way tougher game than fulltilt.

i think at such low stakes all you have to do is bet a good hand and fold a bad one. nobody folds at low stakes. TPWK is like the nuts to them. just value bet your good hands and you'll rake it in

LOL @ Paradise harder than FullTilt.

Also, I never said he should play over his head. I don't care what anyone says, no one plays poker as just a hobby. We are all playing to make money, anyone who refutes that is just being silly.

Listen, this is a point everyone needs to understand. Having really solid preflop skills is no longer the way to beat these games. The games are harder, the fish are being busted one by one, and are no longer redepositing. You need to improve postflop. The game is totally postflop now, especially at 6max. Any fish can download a hand chart but there are no models on how to play postflop. Concentrate on your postflop game and you will become a winning player.

then, i may be the only one playing as hobby.

yes, i intend to make money. but, i dont care to move up in limits. i only care about improving my winrates at the lower levels. if no one can redeposit, that is where you will find the fish, with any frequency, anyway.

am i competitive? sure. but, like i said, we are not all here to "pay the rent." some of us simply enjoy playing hold'em, and would play for play money if anyone there would play like it were real money. to keep people honest, you have to find a level in which most of the players will respect the amount of money on the table, whatever the amount.

i also believe you underestimate the "dwindling fish." yes, it is more difficult to deposit money. yes, the game is changing/evolving. yes, it is noticable. but it is still very beatable. there are some BAD players out there, and always will be.

I Think your biggest issue is POSITION dude. I wonder what your VP$IP% from Button down to the just after the blinds. It should go from big to small (like maybe 40 down to 5 in a nice steady trend)? If so then your OK. If not, this is your problem.

Poker is all about:
1. POSITION
2. POSITION
3. POSITION
4. SKILL
5. PLAYING THE PLAYER & NOT THE CARDS

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

I don't care what anyone says, no one plays poker as just a hobby. We are all playing to make money, anyone who refutes that is just being silly.

I play cause it is a hobby. yes I want to make money when I play, but I make a hell of a lot more money in my real job then I do at poker. actually based on the stats I see many of the higher stakes players post, I make more money then that as well. So if I wanted to make more cash I can just moonlight an extra shift not play poker.
But I do want to get better, and I do want to move up in Limits cause I enjoy getting better at things, my job, pool, sex , poker, and so forth.

-beck

You play pool? English 8-ball???

Originally Posted by gingerwizard

You play pool? English 8-ball???

yeah, I play 8 ball.

-beck

Originally Posted by Beck

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

I don't care what anyone says, no one plays poker as just a hobby. We are all playing to make money, anyone who refutes that is just being silly.

I play cause it is a hobby. yes I want to make money when I play, but I make a hell of a lot more money in my real job then I do at poker. actually based on the stats I see many of the higher stakes players post, I make more money then that as well. So if I wanted to make more cash I can just moonlight an extra shift not play poker.
But I do want to get better, and I do want to move up in Limits cause I enjoy getting better at things, my job, pool, sex , poker, and so forth.

-beck

Well said. I can't believe how narrow minded some people are.

Everybody wants to make money because it's the point of the game, and how it is scored. You can want to win the game without taking it so seriously.

Would you say the same thing about monopoly? What if monopoly was played for money? What about a game like chess being played for money?

Those stats are meaningless because we don't have any indication of your post flop skills.

Note: I play $25 and $50 tables. I can have stats of 25/14/2.8 on one table and stats of 18/7/2 on another table. You have to adjust for table conditions and your players.

You can also be running bad in one sample and running well in another.

I'm just not convinced your stats prove what you think it does.

Ive been building a bankroll out of nothing on bodog for a while and consistently beating the 10$ max NL game for about 80% winning sessions (average win about 5$, average loss 4$).

In these games you encounter calling stations (not as bad as partypoker though), the eventual better player (very rare) and the rest of the fish.
The thing is that in these games people dont raise anything but pairs or AQ up preflop most of the time. Allmost all the time they just limp. You dont have to be the one that punishes them for limping because they call you very often and it doesnt matter what the size of the pot is to them they WILL pay you off if you hit your monster. On hands like KJ up you should try to limit the number of players you get on the flop though.
Next you shoud definitely watch your position play, as that is what will get you the extra money, dont play marginal hands in early position and do raise in late position if you have a hand you think noone behind you has beat. If you have position and none of your opponents have flopped something (they check to you) you will almost allwlays get the money with a pot sized bet, beware of draws though.

If your bankroll is under 100$ you might want to buy in for only 5$ because else you wont be able to handle tose eventual losing streaks and/or tilt plays if you make any.

My experience tells me that its this kind of loose agressive limping style that will get you money over time. If your post flop skills are better than those of your opponents you should be ok even if you dont follow my advice cause those games are realy easy to beat. Hope it helped you gl and see you at the table.

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Listen, this is a point everyone needs to understand. Having really solid preflop skills is no longer the way to beat these games. The games are harder, the fish are being busted one by one, and are no longer redepositing. You need to improve postflop. The game is totally postflop now, especially at 6max. Any fish can download a hand chart but there are no models on how to play postflop. Concentrate on your postflop game and you will become a winning player.

i think this is 100% true - Its really about postflop skills as more and more people see the flops - You should be raising premium hands always, but I would say limp along with them when you have K10s+ and the little pkt pairs...Hands like that play VERY well in multiway pots as long as you don't go nuts when you hit Top Pair -

Frankly, I don't see how anyone can win playing 15%VPIP at 10NL - this isn't giving yourself enough chances to win, IMO - I think at 10NL what worked best for me was playing more passive preflop, then getting aggro post flop - a hand like KJs can turn into a monster against 5 other players with a big flop - u can win big pots limping SC's and broadway cards and pkt pairs - playing 15% of hands is awful tight for that game - I just think the money is made Postflop at that level - not pre -

Never played Dise, but Full Tilt 10NL was as good/better than the 25NL 6max games I played at Ultimate - just my 2 cents....

Even in microstakes I always raise PF my premium hands. Often times this scares everyone off, leaving me with a whopping 6 cents from the blinds, but sometimes I'll get a caller who'll fold to a c-bet or will bet their K to the river when im holding AA. Now, I could be passive, and slowplay them, but my reading skills and postflop play isnt perfect. AA is a very very hard hand to laydown, if you've shown strength and someone is raising you postflop, you have a lot more information to use, and thus it's easier to know if you're beat or not.

Originally Posted by Liam^

Even in microstakes I always raise PF my premium hands. Often times this scares everyone off, leaving me with a whopping 6 cents from the blinds, but sometimes I'll get a caller who'll fold to a c-bet or will bet their K to the river when im holding AA. Now, I could be passive, and slowplay them, but my reading skills and postflop play isnt perfect. AA is a very very hard hand to laydown, if you've shown strength and someone is raising you postflop, you have a lot more information to use, and thus it's easier to know if you're beat or not.

how much are you raising? u want to find the balance to where you get a caller and your hand isn't a dead giveaway...you dont' min-raise, but you don't raise 1/2 your stack either -

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

LOL @ Paradise harder than FullTilt.

Also, I never said he should play over his head. I don't care what anyone says, no one plays poker as just a hobby. We are all playing to make money, anyone who refutes that is just being silly.

Listen, this is a point everyone needs to understand. Having really solid preflop skills is no longer the way to beat these games. The games are harder, the fish are being busted one by one, and are no longer redepositing. You need to improve postflop. The game is totally postflop now, especially at 6max. Any fish can download a hand chart but there are no models on how to play postflop. Concentrate on your postflop game and you will become a winning player.

AMEN!! I took several months away from the game and came back in May. I noticed immediately that I was seeing much less folding to preflop aggression at 10 and 25NL. I had to really work on my postflop game to get back to my prelayoff winrate. It took me a few buyins to figure out what had changed. I'm still working on the solution but I think I'm making progress. You cannot rely on betting to find out where you are anymore. That and the chronic minbet are two things that have changed IMHO. The minbet you can pick off, unless they know, that you know, that they know that.........

Lol Im running 15/10 in my first 5k hands back at 6max NL

Being a nit, making +7ptbb/100 on autopilot, and loving every minute of it. Actually it's fucking boring, but it's about building my roll right now and not whether I like it or not so I suck it up and just keep adding tables to combat the boredom.

Once I get to a level where my opponents hand ranges are more defined and they can define mine more properly I will have to loosen up. However, at this level having the goods when you're in a pot is a must as they are never playing you or the board, they are just playing their own 2 cards.

What I don't get is.. you call 7% PFR aggression?! I consider that borderline nitty already.

ya, 7% is not that much. I think I'm running 24/13 lately, +5.5ptbb/100

I don't like this thread. Being a nit works, but so does looser play. I think 7% is wasteful, you are missing out on blind stealing and giving up too much value to weaker hands. I think people are really confused about aggression, it's for the right spots, it is not blind. A lot of it means betting harder and putting pressure on your opponents when you think they have a weak hand, but if they're re-raising you a push is just going to be spew. A lot of aggression just picks up smaller pots and gets your big pots paid. It's not really about bluffing the medium-large pots.

15/10 sounds fun bigspenda, when I want to be a nit I just open up more tables, its kinda fun because I always have a PP or a sweet hand to play amongst the 6 tables. But I feel like I learn a lot more how to play post flop with looser stats.

Hi, this is my first post here (obviously) but this thread kinda caught my attention. I think micro stakes play (I play 0.05/0.10 and 0.10/0.20) can be played in any number of ways successfully I often read in forums people saying "never bluff because everyone will call" and that "no one ever check raises" or ABC TAG play is the only way to make money at micro stakes.

Firstly you can definitely bluff, quite a lot for that matter, if of course you pick the right spots like any game. For instance you get a lot of players at these stakes that will bet any flop 3 or less handed (maybe more) who will bet at any flop that is checked to them. I have watched these people do this mechanically for about 20 hands in a row, yet they might well be making profit by doing it. So these players can easily be check raised with nothing on a board for instance with one paint card and I often employ this tactic.

Conversely you get the players who are too tight and will always fold to a continuation bet unless they have something so in a 3-way pot or less it is fine to c-bet if the flop is the right texture.

As for games tightening up, I often play at Betfair, and although I often find myself just blind stealing when I raise 4BBs in mid position, I do also notice that calling other peoples raises with AQ, KQ or AJ is definitely profitable unless you know for a fact they are a rock. I attribute this to the fact that a lot of people probably have watched things liked High Stakes Poker and see Daniel Negreanu or someone raising with 65o and think that they can do the same.

Also if people call your raise when you have a holding like AJ and you hit your A, bet and they just call 90% of the time I would say you are ahead (even more so if its a limper who called) unless you know the player is a rock because people really value ace rag especially if its suited at this level. One thing I do notice is how often people just flat call on the flop though especially in a limped pot (which occur way too often in my experience).

However like someone said micro stakes, is still poker so position is absolutely key so when you get 1 or 2 limpers and play reaches you on the button its fine to raise up with K7 or some rubbish like that if you're fine getting rid of the hand if you hit. Also people will see you raising more and not take into account your position, so later in the game people will call you when you raise in early position with AK or the like.

One final point, some players I have played against seem to think that going all in on the river will always look like a bluff, even if this means betting $10 into a $1.50 pot. I love this mentality, for instance yesterday a flop came J33 after I raised on the button with 44 I bet he flat called (by this point I know I am beat) turn came a 6 so I checked and he checked, then the river comes a 4 and I bet half the pot or so for value, he raises me all in I take my chance here that he is on JJ and he turns over K3, thinking he had the best hand that it would look like a bluff.

What I'm saying is all basics I'm sure you all know but I do question sometimes when I read people saying playing micro stakes is not playing poker at all. I'm not saying any of you have this view, I'm merely saying surely a good poker player can adapt to the table.

Anyway hope my ramblings make sense and don't bore you too much.

Cheers Rob

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

it's about building my roll right now

I"m in the same place, building BR trying to move up. I've been working at opening up my game and playing more speculative hands and relying on stronger postflop skills to avoid big mistakes. At .5/.10, I'm playing at 27/9/2.3 (VPIP/PRF/TAF), running at 8+ bb/100 over 25k hands, although I think I can crack 10bb/100 before 50K hands. I want to tighten up a bit, and control pot size more with Top Pr...as I lose a lot here. Also, I've noticed I'm playing more junk and calling small raises, making weak post flop calls, and other minor leaks. Perhaps the play at the level is bringing me down at bit

As far as Atheist's appr0ach, I think it makes a ton of sense. When, I started playing .5/.10 I was at 20/10, raising a lot more and being more aggressive postflop. This just got me into trouble and I was spewing chips, until I loosened up a bit and started bleeding folks that can't laydown top pr. When I got resistance, I started backing off.

Here are the general tactics I've been using:
- raise your premium hands (TT, JJ, AK+) BIG in all positions
- in LP, limp in with SCs, big C's, pairs, etc.
- push draws multi-way, as folks usually call giving you your odds
- Top pr is not that great a hand, particularly OOP
- NEVER slowplay
- No need to milk with TTP and sets just get the chips in there, top pr will call more often than you can imagine
- accept suckouts; they happen ALOT
- avoid daring bluffs; generally don't bluff much at all
- don't bully; you want people to put chips in, not to play back at you, or worse, get up and leave

Thinking about tightening up a bit more, because I feel I'm losing more the rake and staying on hands with weak prs, leaking easy money.

hey chicago and spenda,

this may be a good place for this question/comment.

i am starting to get the itch to move back up again...at least a level or two.

i, too, play at 10 NL...but i do carry over a 10/100. its 11.3 through 23k hands. so, chicago, you can get there...if you want to...but you are already killing the game at 8+.

my problem is: i only carry a 2.5 at 25NL. i used to carry a 6 no prob, but i havent played there that much this year. my 2.5 is only 12k hands, so, i guess it could be variance to some degree, but i am hesitant to think so because of what i notice between 10 and 25. the players are a bit smarter...not great, dont get me wrong, but they dont pay off as often with crap cards, imo. obviously, you find less and less people willing to pay off the higher you go...duh.

thats part of the reason i like the 10's so much..they're so easy to crush. as a result, i have opened up my game a lot. i believe my post flop game has improved a ton...still not great, but much better than it used to be.

all that said, i guess the question is: if i carry a 10+ at the 10NL tables, and would need to carry a 4 at 25NL to make the same money, why would i take the shot when i am only carrying a 2ish currently? why would i cost myself money?

granted, that 4 at 25 becomes a 2 at 50NL...and i carried that, too, when i played up there. i have a hard time thinking i couldnt carry at least a 2 at 50...or a 1 at 100NL.

well, i guess after all that, only i can answer the question. thanks if you decide to reply.

fwiw, chicago,

i am running 23/10/2.5 at the 10's. i am trying to loosen up even more. i used to run 18/7/1.5 before i moved back down...thats why i did...to open up for cheap.

i dont think that 20/10 is too aggro for this level. you just need to log a lot of hands to see it to fruition.

you always need to raise your premiums. you can, and should, limp/call marginals (sc's, etc). you keep betting your premiums, and only continue with marginals on the right flops (no "loose" calls to backdoors, middle pairs, etc). and hit them hard when you make your hands.

rule of thumb is (and i know you already know this one)...

you only need to play SLIGHTLY tighter than the table to make money. again, it just takes a LOT of time to come to fruition. thats what makes rocky tables so tough. you have to outwit them with aggression, you cant play tighter than those guys.

Originally Posted by Chopper

fwiw, chicago,

rule of thumb is (and i know you already know this one)...you only need to play SLIGHTLY tighter than the table to make money.

Re-reading I realize that many of my tactics apply to most levels.

Originally Posted by Chopper

hey chicago and spenda,

all that said, i guess the question is: if i carry a 10+ at the 10NL tables, and would need to carry a 4 at 25NL to make the same money, why would i take the shot when i am only carrying a 2ish currently? why would i cost myself money?

First of all, 12k hands is not enough to determine your WR. I haven't played at 25NL in a while (I hope to soon), but I would think you'd need to play 40-50k to even remotely see where you are at. Plus, you need to be adequately bankrolled, so you don't play scared. You might want to get 25-30 buyins, and then allocate 5-10 buyins as a "learning investment" and don't worry if you lose them. Then play until you lose it, or stabilize your WR.

Then I would think you need to focus your learnings on selective aggression and post flop play at 25 NL. It takes time, and you might get creamed at first. However, with time at that level you might do better than 4. That would be my reason for moving up.

i have played 25...there was a time when i would never think of playing below 25. just not in a couple of months. and i have been "taking shots" at 25. i have a pretty good friend in here that i will find when HE is playing 25's and we will sit and compete against each other...we like to talk smack about how we can kick the other's arse...lol.

some math guys say you need more than 50k to see where you are at. i tend to think thats overkill. after 10k, you should know whether or not you are at least winning. after 25k, you shouldnt be still at the same level, if you are trying to move up, and are beating the game handily. 2 bb/100 isnt necessarily a winning player in my book...even if its a positive win rate. the REAL problem is...you dont have the bonuses to back you up any more...if you lose only slightly, you still lose.

as for br. no prob there. i am rolled for 50's and actually close to 100 again. i used to be up there before the US regs. played there for about 12k hands, and had a positive winrate there, too.

i just fell in love with the 10's because the donkeys will call with anything down there. it allowed me to start playing sc's, raising small pp's, steal blinds with marginals, and work on post flop reading without risking too much money.

i have fun trying new stuff down here and would like to see if it translates higher, but again, i am not here for a career, and i hate to lose...ever. so, for me, i dont want to move up unless i am confident i can beat the game for more than i am beating the 10's.

but, if you said i could beat a 1000NL game for 1.5 bb/100, i would gladly move up because there is NO winrate possible at the 10's to outpace that kind of money...lol.

ps chicago, dont take offense to the diss on your 12k comment. you prolly meant, "it could be variance that it's only 2 bb/100." thank you. but, it could also mean it should be -2...lol i doubt anyone could beat the 10's for 10+ and not be able to beat the 25's. i doubt you would be negative at the 50's, for that matter. however, i doubt you would be close to a 10+ at either.

Originally Posted by Chopper

ps chicago, dont take offense to the diss on your 12k comment. you prolly meant, "it could be variance that it's only 2 bb/100." thank you.

I def. meant this to be constructive, not to snap you off. Sounds like you are in good shape to spend some time at 25NL, if you want to move up. Nonetheless, it feels good to stomp on donkmeat when you have a clear edge.

no, it didnt snap me off, thats why the "no offense." i just saw the way it read, and figured it could be easily misinterpreted.

played up there last night and got it handed to me. get this...

i go down about half a buy by playing a little too aggro (opponents as a whole are definitely more aggressive than the 10's...dont know why it used to be the same).

got adjusted and brought it back to up half a buy. so, i'm getting some confidence.

then, i find a LAGtard who is spewing chips into me right and left, as i continually set him up with some good poker, imo
(when you can get inside their heads and SEE that you have them off guard...you can make quite a run...rare as that is).

then...he raises oop from the sb with 73o. i have AA in the BB and stupidly elect to smooth call...looking to set him up again. he flops 7 3 T two hearts. i think he may be on a draw, so i bet $1. he calls. turn blank. i bet $2...(here i think i got him right where i want him because i'm betting into him instead of letting him play into me)...and he donks me all in for $26!! i'm so Fing confident now that i think he's on a tilt/bluff, and almost instacall him. he flips the 73 (2 pair) over, and before i can say "pair the board" he fills up on the river with another 7!! wtf?!

i broke out into the anger sweats. i joked it off with him in the chat about how that was the sickest beat i've taken in a year...prolly close...and gave hime the obligatory, nh. but, i could feel the steam inside. i had to get up and leave ALL MY TABLES before i tried to donkstack someone else with a 73o of my own.

first time i've really felt TILT in a long time. you usually get smaller versions of tilt that we have hopefully learned to squelch, but this one had me boiling.

and i prolly saved another full buy-in by leaving.

thats my tip o' the day for newer guys...LEARN WHEN YOU ARE TILTING...AND LEAVE FOR AWHILE!!

thats the biggest money-saver/earner you can ever learn to accomplish.