The Second Barrel

This is tripping me up a lot. And I think this is one of the more difficult things to get comfortable with.

I open or raise with a good hand like AK.
On the flop I fire the first barrel with a continuation bet even if I missed.
If someone calls this, I often slow way down if I miss the turn too. I'll check behind and see the river, or put out a blocking bet, no bigger than my flop bet.

The continuation bet is trying to sell that I have an overpair. And if someone calls:
1) They're not buying it.
2) They have a little sumpthing-sumpthing (good draw, middle pair) and are gonna seeeee.
3) They flopped a monster and want me to keep betting.

In this scenario, the turn is where my bet is telling them that I have overcards and not an overpair. Basically, I'm offering them the pot if they have anything at all (small pair or better).

But on a some occassions, with the right read, I've held my ground, fired the second barrel on the turn, and took the pot down right there.

Can someone tell me when YOU are comfortable firing the second barrel?

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=14399

Depends on the player and read. I stopped spewing chips at guys who call me more often than not, and it plugged a leak in my game.

Originally Posted by jmontis

Depends on the player and read. I stopped spewing chips at guys who call me more often than not, and it plugged a leak in my game.

Amen.

Continuation betting past the flop is PURELY situational... there is no correct answer.

But to answer the final question of your post...

I fire the second barrell if I'm only against one player, it appears as if they are on a draw, if there is an ace or king showing, and I think there is a good chance that they will fold. (Determining that there is a good chance they will fold is based completely on reads.)

In tourneys against weak opponents, I'll fire both barrels. I'll even reload and fire a third, though rarely, if I think the guy is a moron or on a busted draw where my A-hi is good...

In ring, if I pick up a draw on the turn or I am checked to in position vs a single opp, I'll fire the second barrel.. out of position or no new draws, it isn't worth the risk usually. I'll make it up on the next continuation bet that takes the pot. Hell, out of position catching a draw, I'll even check-raise a second continuation bet on the turn to screw with them if I think he's trying to buy the pot. I'm a crazy mofo.

- sed

Reminds me of this hand:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=14226

Hey guys,

I LOVE FTR! I have not been a poster to this forum, but I read it just about every day since I started playing and stumbled across the site! I hope to be more involved and write more often in this forum now though. It has taken me from not knowing anything {insert pot odds joke here} to getting a decent handle on the game I have come to love and hate. Well, much has been written on the ever popular continuation bet and I thought I could chime in on some theory/guidelines. My name is Bob (25 yrs. old from Chicago) but, I am currently working as a civilian Network Administration contractor for the U.S. Military in Afghanistan and I play poker online all the time when I am off shift.

Enough about me though and onto the theory/guide:

Ah, the continuation bet saga continues...

This assumes you have missed the flop completely also it could be good to note that different stakes may percieve and/or react differently to the continuation bet!

- Contuation bet in position (CB/IP):


1) Flop is checked to you, make your continuation bet (represent an overpair on rags or a Q/K/A that appears on the flop).

Exceptions: If a "scary flop" appears the situation varies (--Ok my mistake all 7's isn't scary after a pfr- thanks 'rilla)


2) Flop is bet out to you, an easy fold if you do not have a great read

3) *Your continuation bet is called and the turn is checked to you (In most situations you should still bet out here - if paint has just appeared on the turn then it is likely you should bet out).

4) Your continuation bet is raised, your action should be the same as stated in #2 unless a good read is available (Your action there would obviously be based on your read).

5) On the river a check behind or fold to a bet without a solid read would be pretty standard here.


- Continuation bet out of position (CB/OOP):

> This is played very similar to being in position - make your CB, *if called then bet the turn, if raised then fold unless a good read substantiates continuing. Again on the river it would take a very good read or in some cases just a heck of a lot of guts to fire the third bullet.


Ok, so your pattern of making CB's has caught up with you and you find yourself often getting called or raised - now what?

Well here are some options on this and I am not gonna say that one is better than the other as they are both effective and it also can depend on your style of play as well:

1) Go into CHECK/FOLD mode (Yep, just fold - nothing exciting or extravagant: The idea here is not to be worried about appearing weak at all, you can give them the idea that they can walk over you and later on when you bet on the flop and did not miss they will get caught up in it when you have the goods).

2) OOP - CHECK/RAISE! (It's more aggressive, but also more dangerous - reads are important here also: Perhaps better after one or two CHECK/FOLDS, you should be capable of a check-raise in this situation with or without the cards and making your opponent aware that you are capable of check-raising in this situation with the goods is just a great way to send them for a loop off of their game! ). In position re-raising requires a high quality read and can be big trouble, but also keeps you as the aggressor.

3) This is NOT much of a situation to be calling or check/calling, it is not recommended in most situations here (exceptions always apply).


*The suggestion stated in CB/IP #3 and with the asterisk under CB/OOP can be debated quite a bit, so just take it as a suggestion and my personal preference. I see it this way: You are facing GENERALLY a few situations -

1) Your opponent has a mediocre holding such as middle Pair or TPWK - a bet has good fold equity with this holding

2) Your opponent is on a decent draw (or perhaps middle pair + draw) - do you want to give away a free card for this draw?

3) Your opponent is slow-playing a monster (Worst case scenario) - On the one hand you do not want to leak chips away to a monster, but on the other hand what happens if you hold A,K and you hit the river after checking the turn? Do you have the slightest clue where you stand? The A or K hit the river and it can appear to be good equity because it came out of nowhere, but against a monster your hand might as well be 8 high! that happens if you hit your A or K, but it fills a str8 or flush possibility? A turn bet here IMO can save you some chips here against a monster if it is called or raised as well as creating fold leverage for case 1 & 2). If a turn CB is called then you can check the river and maybe call a small bet in some situations.

4) Your opponent is making a bluff/steal/counter to your bluff - Your fold equity is tremendous here and if your opponent does not lay down their cards to a turn bet then they DESERVE THE POT! Check/fold mode is your only option here without a hit on the river or a read for the bluff counter (If you can read them for that, I want you as my mentor, lol!).


- Last but not least, the monster CB:

1) You flop a monster and you know you need to let your opponent capture a piece of the board, so you want to slow-play it and want to
check the flop.

2) This could easily be a MISTAKE if you have a constant pattern of making CB's - a check is out of place here! It is a tricky situation but, a solid and observant opponent can realize something is TERRIBLY WRONG HERE! (This may not apply against a fish or non-observant player).

***Obviously poker is situational and my thoughts might not be best for every situation or every person - thanks for reading though and I hope it helps!!!

flop is all 7's

Not a scary flop at all. In fact, some of the best flops you could want to see when you preflop raise. It means the best hand before the flop is still the best hand after the flop.

-'rilla

I would say it depends on what the stakes are. At the micro tables, Keep firing, and fire hard. People will chase anything at those levels. Last night I won a $40 hand at a $.25 NL table, I flopped a pair of aces, and two idiots kept reraising me till we were all in, One had a mid poket pair, and the other was chasing the flush, which I was ona flush draw too, and I had the ace if it hit. At the micros, keep firing.

Originally Posted by dalecooper

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14399

Yeah, this thread, Storm, 6th post down. Nails.

Now, why aren't I rich yet?

Originally Posted by jmontis

Depends on the player and read. I stopped spewing chips at guys who call me more often than not, and it plugged a leak in my game.

I have to agree 100%
here is a tip that really helped me. Be on the lookout for the players that will almost always call a preflop raise if they have already limped in and then fold on the flop bet if they didn't hit. These People are the players that you will make the most $$ off of. Now to solve your problem, when one of these players has called your flop bet, SLOW DOWN (unless you can beat minimum top pair) because the chances are that you are already beat and giving away money.

The other type of players that you want to fire out the second barrel are the type that will always call you to "check out" the turn for his flush draw or I don't know what. most of the time you'll get them to fold unless they improved.
Just pay attention to the table and you'll spot them pretty fast.
later