Preflop strats..situation i ran into.

25 NL on PP

10 max

cards are delt.

6 limpers..i find AKo on the button .. i make it 8x the big blind to go

everyone folds to the 4th limper who pushes all in and the rest fold its up to me.

stack sizes are equal about 24$ for villain and me with 28$

i havent seen the villian turn over any hands yet, but he does put out large raises and gets folds.

im thinking LAG player, maybe semi aware.

what is your move ?

AI. Take a flip with 88.

-'rilla

i'll post the results after a few more replies .. i did end up calling.

The 4th limper that raises AI is UTG+1?

If it were the first limper, I would say fold - the fish love this move with Aces. As it's the fourth limper, I think 'rilla is right and he has a middle pair.

I reckon he has a pocket pair for sure, so it's down to whether you want to gamble it up.

Originally Posted by Element187

i'll post the results after a few more replies .. i did end up calling.

No reason to wait. You're only afraid of 2 hands and if op is dumb enough to limp behind 3 other limpers with KK or AA then so be it. If he has kings or aces, you're being too results oriented anyway.

-'rilla

6 limpers before the action gets to me... meaning, none of the blinds have acted... i raise 8x .. the blinds fold, 3 of the first limpers fold ... the 4th limper in the pot pushes all in .. the rest fold, action is back to me, its just me and villian now.


whats your read on villian, do you fold or call and why ?

I would call him... if he had AA, KK, QQ. I think he would have 4xBB, at least. So I think he has mid-pair trying to buy the pot. Rilla is right.

Originally Posted by Element187

25 NL on PP

10 max

cards are delt.

6 limpers..i find AKo on the button .. i make it 8x the big blind to go

everyone folds to the 4th limper who pushes all in and the rest fold its up to me.

stack sizes are equal about 24$ for villain and me with 28$

i havent seen the villian turn over any hands yet, but he does put out large raises and gets folds.

im thinking LAG player, maybe semi aware.

what is your move ?

The pot is only about $4 when villain pushes for $24. So it's $24 for you to call into a $28 pot. I think you are at best a coinflip (vs mid PP), at worst dominated (AA/KK seems very unlikely, but you can't discount the fact that some people BADLY misplay these hands at those levels.) I think if he is pushing with a middle PP then you can find a better opportunity to bust him then a coinflip with AK. I'd say I probably fold this with no reads.

- Lukie

Originally Posted by Lukie

Originally Posted by Element187

25 NL on PP

10 max

cards are delt.

6 limpers..i find AKo on the button .. i make it 8x the big blind to go

everyone folds to the 4th limper who pushes all in and the rest fold its up to me.

stack sizes are equal about 24$ for villain and me with 28$

i havent seen the villian turn over any hands yet, but he does put out large raises and gets folds.

im thinking LAG player, maybe semi aware.

what is your move ?

The pot is only about $4 when villain pushes for $24. So it's $24 for you to call into a $28 pot. I think you are at best a coinflip (vs mid PP), at worst dominated (AA/KK seems very unlikely, but you can't discount the fact that some people BADLY misplay these hands at those levels.) I think if he is pushing with a middle PP then you can find a better opportunity to bust him then a coinflip with AK. I'd say I probably fold this with no reads.

- Lukie

exactly my thinking, in a cash game, why would you risk so much money to be at best an underdog to a pocket pair, or at worst be up against aa or kk and have less than 10% chance to win the pot? Nething other than folding seems extremely wrong to me, why not just wait to outplay the person postflop?

Originally Posted by Lukie

Originally Posted by Element187

25 NL on PP

10 max

cards are delt.

6 limpers..i find AKo on the button .. i make it 8x the big blind to go

everyone folds to the 4th limper who pushes all in and the rest fold its up to me.

stack sizes are equal about 24$ for villain and me with 28$

i havent seen the villian turn over any hands yet, but he does put out large raises and gets folds.

im thinking LAG player, maybe semi aware.

what is your move ?

The pot is only about $4 when villain pushes for $24. So it's $24 for you to call into a $28 pot. I think you are at best a coinflip (vs mid PP), at worst dominated (AA/KK seems very unlikely, but you can't discount the fact that some people BADLY misplay these hands at those levels.) I think if he is pushing with a middle PP then you can find a better opportunity to bust him then a coinflip with AK. I'd say I probably fold this with no reads.

- Lukie

good point ... i wouldnt have called this for a coin flip in a cash game, i like to be at least 60% or better before i commit my chips .

like i said, villian is almost lag maniac .. he pushes his chips in alot.

i'm thinking, late position, im on the button, my raise is double then what i normally raise, should tell villian i'm on a steal, possibly.

if he is a thinking player, he would think im on a steal and push his chips in to get me to fold.

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Originally Posted by Element187

i'll post the results after a few more replies .. i did end up calling.

No reason to wait. You're only afraid of 2 hands and if op is dumb enough to limp behind 3 other limpers with KK or AA then so be it. If he has kings or aces, you're being too results oriented anyway.

-'rilla

im kinda surprised rilla .. in a cash game if your read is good for a low pocket pair, you commit your stack on a coin flip ?

in a tournament where getting chips is paramount to winning, i would in a heart beat.. but in a cash game, i like getting into a hand as the favorite.

ok one more hint.. i win the hand unimproved...

just trying to get some people to think a little outside of the box .. would a pocket pair, limp in after 3 people have and push all in a late position raiser ??

im trying to understand the motive for the fishes play myself... personally i dont like coin flip situations in cash games... but i think my read was dead on as two unpaired hole cards.

Ace rag? 7 or 8 maybe? I'll go for A8s.

"would a pocket pair, limp in after 3 people have and push all in a late position raiser ??"

Limp, certainly, and with 99 or TT maybe well fancy their chances against either a pot stealer or someone with overcards. But enough people slowplay AA to make that a genuine concern - they think they're being all clever.

Last night I played a £25NL game where three guys did the min-raise min-raise, £1-£1.25-£1.50 etc. thing as it went round the table pre-flop until one of them decides to bang down a 14xBB bet to stop it. One opponent folds; the other immediately goes all-in and wins with AA. I rather admired that

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

AI. Take a flip with 88.

-'rilla

Yep. I'm thinking coin flip. I don't think he should take it though. Too many limpers who then fold probably means your A and K draws are dead.

i called, homeboy flipped K7 suited over.

im starting to call more all ins when im up against a maniac.

Originally Posted by Element187

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Originally Posted by Element187

i'll post the results after a few more replies .. i did end up calling.

No reason to wait. You're only afraid of 2 hands and if op is dumb enough to limp behind 3 other limpers with KK or AA then so be it. If he has kings or aces, you're being too results oriented anyway.

-'rilla

im kinda surprised rilla .. in a cash game if your read is good for a low pocket pair, you commit your stack on a coin flip ?

in a tournament where getting chips is paramount to winning, i would in a heart beat.. but in a cash game, i like getting into a hand as the favorite.

+EV. 'nuff said bitches.

-'rilla

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Originally Posted by Element187

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Originally Posted by Element187

i'll post the results after a few more replies .. i did end up calling.

No reason to wait. You're only afraid of 2 hands and if op is dumb enough to limp behind 3 other limpers with KK or AA then so be it. If he has kings or aces, you're being too results oriented anyway.

-'rilla

im kinda surprised rilla .. in a cash game if your read is good for a low pocket pair, you commit your stack on a coin flip ?

in a tournament where getting chips is paramount to winning, i would in a heart beat.. but in a cash game, i like getting into a hand as the favorite.

+EV. 'nuff said bitches.

-'rilla

wouldnt a coinflip be a break even proposition ?? or are you counting the dead money on the table from the other limpers. AKo is a slight dog to a pocket pair

Ignoring rake, you're calling $20 into a $29.25 pot. You're getting alomst 1.5:1 on your money. AK0 is not that big of an underdog to a pocket pair, so as much as it pains me to say it, 'rilla is right. You're +EV making that call.

Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

Ignoring rake, you're calling $20 into a $29.25 pot. You're getting alomst 1.5:1 on your money. AK0 is not that big of an underdog to a pocket pair, so as much as it pains me to say it, 'rilla is right. You're +EV making that call.

The pot should be $3.85 when villain pushes for $24. So you are calling $24 into a $27.85 pot. That's 1.16 : 1 on your money, not including rake. Obviously the rake takes away from that even more. Against a maniac who could limp-push with a hand like K7s (or a more reasonable hand like AQ), this is definately +EV. With no reads against an unknown player, I still think I have to fold this hand, although I don't think a call is necessarily a bad play. It's all about the reads.

- Lukie

Sorry, math was wrong in previous post. Calculated pot based on mixture of 25 and 50NL for whatever reason.

Ignoring rake you're calling $22 into a $27.25 pot, thus getting 1.24 : 1 on your money.

AKo vs. pocket pair is anywhere between 1.21 and 1.34 : 1 dog against QQ or lower.

Basically you're even money on this play statistically. But when you factor in the $25NL idiot factor, situations such as this usually become +EV.

My math was also wrong.. you are calling $22 into the pot not $24.

if you have a huge BR say 30 buy-ins then you can go for the gambol but I prefer to get my chips in when im more confident ive got a higher advantage. The way I look at it, you've only put $2 in the pot, so I would leave that and save my stack.

if someone has < 30 BBlinds i may take the gambol, but not with a full stack.