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Poker isn't about winning pots, it's about winning money...

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  1. #1

    Default Poker isn't about winning pots, it's about winning money...

    From The Theory of Poker - Sklansky
    Yeah, just read that after a (winning) session which felt like a losing one due to 2 really badly played hands.
    I'm going to post em up just so you can do any of several things: Laugh at my dumb ass, add advice, encourage me in my loooong slooow grind that I'm determined to see through.
    (Just to recap as there's another thread floating around here that only reinforces my approach to poker - start at the bottom and work fucking hard at your game.)
    I began with a $50 deposit at Stars 2 months ago and have slogged away at 25k hands of 5NL at a current winrate of 5.4ptbb/100 to get to my current roll of $178. I'm 50 FPP's away from clearing my $50 bonus so one way or another I'm soon going to hit $200 and move up to the hallowed lands of 10NL
    Anyway, I'd be even closer to that $200 if not for these 2 hands which I played at exactly the same time.

    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) Converter Tool from (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

    Button ($4.52)
    SB ($11.71)
    BB ($7.22)
    UTG ($6.06)
    Hero ($10.03)
    MP1 ($5.19)
    MP2 ($10.17)
    CO ($4.50)

    Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 4d, 4c.
    UTG calls $0.05, Hero raises to $0.25, 3 folds, Button calls $0.25, SB calls $0.23, 1 fold, UTG calls $0.20.

    Flop: ($1.05) Qs, 3d, 4h(4 players)
    SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $0.75, Button folds, SB calls $0.75, UTG folds.

    Turn: ($2.55) 2d(2 players)
    SB checks, Hero bets $1.5, SB raises to $3, Hero raises to $7.53, SB raises to $10.71, Hero calls $1.50 (All-In).

    River: ($22.29) Td (2 players, 1 all-in)

    Final Pot: $20.61
    Results in white below:
    SB has 6d 5d (flush, ten high).
    Hero has 4d 4c (three of a kind, fours).
    Outcome: SB wins $22.29.


    Literally as I was chucking away a stack due to not even thinking about villains check-raise, this hand was going on:

    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) Converter Tool from (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

    MP2 ($4.94)
    MP3 ($3.63)
    CO ($5.80)
    Button ($11.17)
    SB ($4.43)
    BB ($2)
    UTG ($5.12)
    Hero ($12.78)
    MP1 ($3.69)

    Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 7s, 7c.
    1 fold, Hero raises to $0.2, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.20, 5 folds.

    Flop: ($0.47) 7h, 6s, 6h (2 players)
    Hero checks, MP2 bets $0.15, Hero calls $0.15.

    Turn: ($0.77) 2d(2 players)
    Hero checks, MP2 checks.

    River: ($0.77) Th(2 players)
    Hero bets $2, MP2 folds.

    Final Pot: $0.77

    Results in white below:
    Hero has 7s 7c (full house, sevens full of sixes).
    Outcome: Hero wins $0.77.


    I knew I should have backed off and saved myself a crapload of money on the first hand and my annoyance at knowing that transferred onto a hand where I could have extracted at least SOME value instead of trying to win back a chunk of the BI I'd just lost. Anyway, lesson learnt, next time I flop a set I'll look much more carefully at the board I'm betting into, especially when my macho reraising doesn't achieve a thing and next time I flop a full house, I won't randomly shove a 3xPSB on the end that's never going to get called.
    I think in the end I always would have lost some money on hand 1 and always was going to win hand 2, I was just thinking more in terms of winning pots, and not winning money( and by extension winning money includes LOSING LESS money right?!). That Sklansky dude knows his shit

    Thanks for listening!
  2. #2
    oskar's Avatar
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    Holy crap no!
    You played the first hand close to perfect. I don't know about the raise preflop - could have been a little less, but it depends on the table, and what your plan is on the flop if oyu miss. After that I see no problem. You want to get it all-in with a set every time. (knowing that someone will comment on this... there are rare occasions where you can fold a set... usually it's on the river when the board alone almost beats you... this is not one of them)
    Certainly a made straight is a possibility, but so is AQ, KQ, or connectors that made 2 pair. Even Queens up I wouldn't be too surprised to see at this level.

    In the second hand - bet more on the flop and turn so you can make a big bet on the river without scaring your opponent too much.
    Alternatively you can check the flop and wait for your opponent to catch something. If you decide to bet though - definitely bet more, and continue on the turn. Don't just shove it in on the river without any rhyme or reason. your opponent might as well have had a draw and would have payed you on previous streets.
  3. #3
    Well at the very least I could have saved that last $1.5 in the first hand. It's very rare at 5NL that people throw that kind of money about without the nuts- I had put him on AQ/KQ even 33 with no draws out there so figured it was game over. I barely even paid attention to the rest of the hand which is what annoyed me so much.

    Second hand, with a board like that I can see no reason not to at least give villain a chance to bet into me which he did (albeit with a tiny amount) on the flop. I was praying he was going to hit his draw if he had one otherwise I think any bets would scare him off. Bearing in mind the river hit a possible flush it would have been far better to fire something like 2/3 psb to induce either a call or a raise (if he did hit) wouldn't it?

    I know that considering both hands I could only have saved about $2 or so but it's edges like that I need to work on to improve my play as I work through the stakes.
    Thanks for the feedback though

    Thanks for your feedback
  4. #4
    oskar's Avatar
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    I didn't even notice that he bet. You have to raise him on the flop. Make it about a pot sized bet. Hopefully he has an overpair, and he'll probably call with a flush draw. You can never check that turn. Either he has a hand, or he has a draw. He'll pay with a draw and he might raise with a hand. Checking here is terrible, and I can't imagine anyone here will disagree with me on that.

    I won't comment further on the first hand, I'll let other people tell you the same.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  5. #5
    Hand 1 is fine and you got your money in ahead. I would just 4 bet shove turn but it didn't make a difference. You got unlucky, it happens.

    Hand 2 you should prob 3 bet flop and def bet turn and river. You gotta build the pot if you wanna get it in. If he folds, he folds and probably wouldn't get much out of him regardless.
  6. #6
    JKDS's Avatar
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    i play hand 1 exactly the same. play hand 2 more like hand 1
  7. #7
    Best of luck on your poker journey! I am in a similar situation, I am about to clear my $50 initial bonus on Stars and get up to about $225 or so. It would have been $250 but I lost about $25 last night 5NL playing like an idiot.

    At that level, everyone plays very straight forward poker. Just because someone is raising on the button doesn't necessarily mean they're blind stealing, so unless you notice a strong pattern of this, it's best to just give up the hand and move on. At 5NL, most people probably don't even pay attention to position at the table.

    I came from playing strictly SnGs, so I am working on my post-flop game a lot. One thing I can tell you after reading the cash game posts on this site is that a lot of the stuff that they talk about here doesn't really apply to the 5NL games. The people there are pretty much just playing their cards. Don't worry much about your image at the table and all of the meta-game stuff, because at 5NL people are just throwing around change to have fun, without really knowing what they're doing. You're not going to push someone off of their TPTK regardless of your style of play and what you've shown down recently, so don't bother trying.

    That's my feelings at least. Maybe I'm over-simplifying 5NL, but from what I've seen so far, if someone is telling you they have a strong hang, believe them.

    Good luck!
  8. #8
    Heh, well that makes me feel a bit better about things, I guess I thought I should have been more cautious on hand 1. It's the advice on hand 2 I appreciate, I struggle to work out how to extract value from a hand sometimes and seems like you all agree on taking the same solid line.

    Edit: @ RML: Yup that's why I felt annoyed at myself, I don't think I've EVER seen someone reraise twice (at this level) without a seriously big hand but in the long run I won't be at 5NL for much longer (I hope) so getting into better habits for the slightly more challenging 10NL can't be bad.

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