Playing AK, AQ, KQ from the blinds

We've all been there, you pick up a nice starting hand like AK, AQs, KQs in one of the blinds, and couple people limp in. Do you raise this up? Limp/check for deceptioin? How do you play this the majority of the time.

I only ask because these are easily raised in a limit game... I'm not so sure in a NL game...

I raise AK/AQ and limp KQ. Sometimes I raise KQ if there is just 1 late limper. I don't like playing KQ/AJ OOP.

I limp/check.

If I hit top pair I'll often check. Often a slow playing tactic that works well because no one suspects the blinds.. wuah hahaha

raise it and hope for 1 caller max. AKo isnt a great hand. AQ is worse.
If you limp a pot with 4 callers and you dont hit an A or K you are probably behind. If you hit TPTK you could still easily be behind to 2 pair or better.
These are vulnerable hands that i play very fast and i dont mind too much if all i pick up is the blinds.
Play them fast, get maybe 1 caller and cbet decent flops whether you hit or not. If he calls the flop then reevaluate the turn

AK isn't a great hand?

I like to raise it up.

Raise the bejeezus out of it.

Continuation bet it.

Yep.

% of time you flop something amazing and have a concealed monster is surely much less than the percentage of time that you can win the pot by pfr/continuation bet.

the downside is if you are called both times then you're out of position with a troublesome hand... but that's where the experience/reads/skill kicks in i suppose.

Originally Posted by Silent7

Yep.

% of time you flop something amazing and have a concealed monster is surely much less than the percentage of time that you can win the pot by pfr/continuation bet.

the downside is if you are called both times then you're out of position with a troublesome hand... but that's where the experience/reads/skill kicks in i suppose.

yup

Originally Posted by Lukie

AK isn't a great hand?

No.

AA is a great hand.
AK is a good hand.

If you limp
If AK misses the flop against 4 other limpers you have no pair and no fold equity.
If AK hits 1 pair against 4 other limpers you are could well be in the realm of reverse implied odds. You bet and they fold with anything that you beat collecting a nice 5BB or you bet and they call, raise with a better hand that you probably have very few outs against and you lose alot more.

If you raise
If AK misses the flop against 1 other player after you raised preflop and a Q hits the flop you have no pair and high fold equity (read dependant obviously) to a cbet and the pot is bigger than if you limped aswell.

Bigger pot + more chance of winning pot = +EV surely

Conclusion

It is probably better to raise preflop with AK and that is what i do.


Edit: corrected 10BB to 5BB and a whole host of other stuff to try and make this understandable

Originally Posted by Pelion

Originally Posted by Lukie

AK isn't a great hand?

No.

AA is a great hand.
AK is a good hand.

If AK misses the flop against 4 other limpers you have no pair and no fold equity.
If AK hits 1 pair against 4 other limpers you are probably in the realm of reverse implied odds. You bet and they fold with anything that you beat collecting a nice 10BB or you bet and they call, raise with a better hand that you probably have very few outs against and you lose alot more.
If AK misses the flop against 1 other player after you raised preflop and a Q hits the flop you have no pair and high fold equity (read dependant obviously) and the pot is bigger than if you limped aswell.

Bigger pot + mroe chance of winning pot = +EV surely

if you're in a pot with AK against 4 limpers you're playing it incorrectly. grow a set of balls and raise it.

Raise in any position - blinds or not. What hands are limping before you that have you beat? Possibly pocket pairs but if you hit an A or K, you should feel confident you are ahead. If are OOP and they are calling you down, then you have to rethink things a little. I amazed at how many times I'm called on the flop after a continuation bet here and they fold on the turn or river bet even when I totally miss. These pots add up.

KQ is the exception. I tend to mix up limping and raising depending on my image and the table.

Sometimes you can limp for deception, but in a multiway pot if you flop a monster with AK (ie. TJQ, or AAK) you've crippled the deck, and your not gonna get any action anyway. Just raise it and buy on the flop.

Originally Posted by BankItPayette

I limp/check.

If I hit top pair I'll often check. Often a slow playing tactic that works well because no one suspects the blinds.. wuah hahaha

Slowplaying TPTK is like matches and dynamite, anyone who catches up, probably holds a better hand. TPTK is overvalued. Its a decent hand w/ position; however, given the title of this thread, we can assume that you are playing TPTK out of position. When Playing TPTK out of position your goal is to buy the pot, as quickly as possible.

Originally Posted by Pelion

Originally Posted by Lukie

AK isn't a great hand?

No.

AA is a great hand.
AK is a good hand.

If AK misses the flop against 4 other limpers you have no pair and no fold equity.
If AK hits 1 pair against 4 other limpers you are probably in the realm of reverse implied odds. You bet and they fold with anything that you beat collecting a nice 10BB or you bet and they call, raise with a better hand that you probably have very few outs against and you lose alot more.
If AK misses the flop against 1 other player after you raised preflop and a Q hits the flop you have no pair and high fold equity (read dependant obviously) and the pot is bigger than if you limped aswell.

Bigger pot + mroe chance of winning pot = +EV surely

AK is a fine hand..
When you are playing AK, why are you in a 5-way limped pot?
Why are you betting in a 5 way pot with AK without improving?
If AK hits TPTK against 4 other limpers.... meh, this shouldn't happen. No bother in discussing it really IMO.
How does a 5 way limped pot turn into a 10BB pot on the flop?
About being beat when you bet out and you get called or raised, this is kinda weak I think. A lot of people limp any suited or connected rags and call/raise on a semi-bluff. If a solid player is raising you with position that's a different story and you don't want to lose your stack to a set with TPTK.

Other then that, I'm kinda missing the point of your post..

I personally like to take a lot of flops, but with AK always reraise yes AK is a beastly hand, there are not enough hands that are strong enough to play back at you to make a reraise even close to -EV, aq on the other hand :/ But if you play it very strong you shouldnt get much action anyway.

Technically you can do this with just about any hand if you notice too many limpers chances are you only need to beat the original raiser, its unlikley the second or third limper will just flat call with a monster ( unless your in a passive table ) they are preety much dead money.

Originally Posted by Lukie

Originally Posted by Pelion

Originally Posted by Lukie

AK isn't a great hand?

No.

AA is a great hand.
AK is a good hand.

If AK misses the flop against 4 other limpers you have no pair and no fold equity.
If AK hits 1 pair against 4 other limpers you are probably in the realm of reverse implied odds. You bet and they fold with anything that you beat collecting a nice 10BB or you bet and they call, raise with a better hand that you probably have very few outs against and you lose alot more.
If AK misses the flop against 1 other player after you raised preflop and a Q hits the flop you have no pair and high fold equity (read dependant obviously) and the pot is bigger than if you limped aswell.

Bigger pot + mroe chance of winning pot = +EV surely

AK is a fine hand..
When you are playing AK, why are you in a 5-way limped pot?
Why are you betting in a 5 way pot with AK without improving?
If AK hits TPTK against 4 other limpers.... meh, this shouldn't happen. No bother in discussing it really IMO.
How does a 5 way limped pot turn into a 10BB pot on the flop?
About being beat when you bet out and you get called or raised, this is kinda weak I think. A lot of people limp any suited or connected rags and call/raise on a semi-bluff. If a solid player is raising you with position that's a different story and you don't want to lose your stack to a set with TPTK.

Other then that, I'm kinda missing the point of your post..

i ment 5 BB pot on the flop which actually makes my point stronger. since the pot size when raising and getting 1 caller would be so much higher than the potsize when limping and getting how ever many callers you get.

Im not playing AK in a 5-way limped pot, im saying its a good but vulnarable hand preflop and shouldnt be played in a limped pot. If you read my first post you will see that i said to raise it and hope to get 1 caller.
I think its pretty clear from what ive posted that this isnt a hand i like to limp with and im not really sure what you are arguing with since i havnt EVER suggested limping a hand like this in any of my posts ever on any forum...

Originally Posted by Lukie

When you are playing AK, why are you in a 5-way limped pot?

thats actually the whole point of this thread. The original poster asked if it was better to limp for deception or to raise.
As i have said already: i dont limp AK.

Edit: I will edit my post to make it clearer what i ment. The point was i think it is far more profitable, and less risky to raise + cbet

On the party 50NL tables I like to raise AKs with 5 limpers on the blind to 6xBB - 8xBB.

I've found that once people commit even 1BB to the pot preflop, every one of them will likely call 4x with garbage to "protect" their investment. The 6x raise gets a little more respect and generally gets it 3 up or heads up (which is what you want). And you can assume that the other hand(s) at that point are:
behind (AQs, KQs, AJs)
in a race (pocket pair)
stupid (56s, 89s, K8, etc)

Though the stupid people ARE out there, and if you get pushed hard you need to be ready to muck your TPTK.

-c

Originally Posted by Lukie

AK isn't a great hand?

It is one of these hands which people have different opinions about.

Doyle Brunson prefers it to AA or KK as he figures to win more money with it.

TJ Cloutier warns of the dangers of it - as if you miss the flop (which you will do more often than not) you have nothing

AK is dominated by any pair - give me 22 against AK anyday and over a decent number of hands the deuces will show a clear and tidy profit.

Yet most people at my local casino would rather go ai with AK than a pair - they seem to like potential.

I take the line that with AK you want to see all 5 cards so you should raise with it to try to ensure this. But I'm always wary that all I've got are a couple of high cards.

Originally Posted by cryptyk

I've found that once people commit even 1BB to the pot preflop, every one of them will likely call 4x with garbage to "protect" their investment.

This is good for you, hell I want all the table to call me with garbage when I have AKs...

AKs yes because now you are getting the right odds to draw to the flush aswell, AKo is a different story.

As i said before if you raise and get 1 caller at a low stakes table you can usually cbet him off the pot on the flop. If you limp with alot of other players you are less likely to be able to cbet them off as you havnt represented anything preflop, you are also much more likely to be behind to 2 pair when you hit TPTK.
Since
1) when you limp with a few limpers you get a similar pot size as when you raise and get 1 caller
and
2) when you raise and get 1 caller you have a much better chance of winning the pot

i think it is clearly more profitable to raise + cbet as a default play

obviously this could change depending on the table.

e.g. if raises dont isolate and cbets dont get people to fold then it could be better to play them more passivly e.g. counterplay style.

Originally Posted by bunthorne

Originally Posted by Lukie

AK isn't a great hand?

It is one of these hands which people have different opinions about.

Doyle Brunson prefers it to AA or KK as he figures to win more money with it.

TJ Cloutier warns of the dangers of it - as if you miss the flop (which you will do more often than not) you have nothing

AK is dominated by any pair - give me 22 against AK anyday and over a decent number of hands the deuces will show a clear and tidy profit.

Yet most people at my local casino would rather go ai with AK than a pair - they seem to like potential.

I take the line that with AK you want to see all 5 cards so you should raise with it to try to ensure this. But I'm always wary that all I've got are a couple of high cards.

I understand AK is not a made hand. It's still very solid though.

Of course you would rather have KK or AA, but you have to work with what you are dealt. AK comes up more then KK and AA combined.

If you miss the flop, you have an ace-high hand. At this point though, you generally have very little money invested in the pot so this really isn't that big of a problem...

You clearly do not understand what the word 'dominated' means in poker, so I won't even go there.

I did not say AK was a good AI hand (assuming this is a deep stack cash game situation), but it is certainly better then most pairs.

Also, Pelion.. I must have misunderstood your post.. maybe you edited it.. I'm not sure. When I made my post it was under the impression that you were advocating limping AK in all positions.. I'm thinking I must have just read it too quickly and missed something.

Originally Posted by Lukie

Also, Pelion.. I must have misunderstood your post.. maybe you edited it.. I'm not sure. When I made my post it was under the impression that you were advocating limping AK in all positions.. I'm thinking I must have just read it too quickly and missed something.

thats ok

Originally Posted by bunthorne

Yet most people at my local casino would rather go ai with AK than a pair - they seem to like potential.

Yeah, I wonder why people would rather go AI with AK over a low PP....

...oh wait:

Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ks Ac 799119 46.67 903239 52.75 9946 0.58 0.470
2d 2h 903239 52.75 799119 46.67 9946 0.58 0.530

Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ks Ac 729149 42.58 977567 57.09 5588 0.33 0.427
Jd Jh 977567 57.09 729149 42.58 5588 0.33 0.573

Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
2s 2c 317480 18.54 1386204 80.96 8620 0.50 0.188
Jd Jh 1386204 80.96 317480 18.54 8620 0.50 0.812