Player types

I need to be come more skilled at identifying player types, lines and tendencies for the purposes of better identifying their range.

I split player types in Stars using the tabs like this:

Blue = Fish (e.g. 30/15)
Orange = Maniac (45/35 + Spewy, uber bluffy etc)
Red = Nit (e.g. <13/9)
Purple = TAgg (e.g. 19/17)
Turquoise = LAgg (27/22)

1) Are these fairly accurate?
2) Can anyone link me to any good reading on this?
3) What are your own thoughts?

what stake?

Microstakes really

5 and 10nl, though I guess it's the same at 25nl too.

Im still not really sure what you're asking here. "A rose by any other name etc etc".

What I'm asking is are there more player type to consider? Is the way I've categorised my players accurate? How many types of fish are there? Etc

I wasn't aware that you had to categorize everyone you play against

Originally Posted by Imthenewfish

I wasn't aware that you had to categorize everyone you play against

That's what yellow is for

Like people have been saying, also try and get as many notes as you can down on people. If you're going to pigeonhole them with a note /colour you can also include something about betting patterns, sizing tells etc.

FWIW the aggression level of fish can vary a lot. A lot of fish actually run something like 40/5 (or even 40/2) to 30/10 though obv some can be a bit more aggressive.
Id say at FR 27/22 is leaning towards the "maniac" description for me, LAgg is more 22/18 ish..

Easy, that system is fine but its significantly more important that you understand the proper adjustments to combat a players tendencies than to give them a generic label. This is certainly a good place to start though.

don't categorize players, have specific reads on everyone if possible. categorizing leads to horrific misreads and misplays.

Originally Posted by Bbickes

don't categorize players, have specific reads on everyone if possible. categorizing leads to horrific misreads and misplays.

Disagree.

Categorizing (I'm talking color labels to identify fish, nits, maniacs, TAGs, LAGs, etc) is extremely helpful for table selection and if you are multi tabling it's just one more piece of information that is readily available to you when facing a decision.

There's no reason why you shouldn't categorize the players and then get specific reads, or vice versa. You shouldn't stop taking notes just because you put a tag on some fish.

I personally start tagging people after 50+ hands based on VPIP/PFR and/or what kind of hands they've shown down and how they played it. Obviously taking notes before 50+ hands where relevant.

I think you're onto a good start just don't rely on it as your sole source of information when making decisions. You still need to use your reads etc.

I think it is unfair to say "Don't categorize players" is silly since EVERYBODY in poker does this. Otherwize where did the terms LAGG, TAGG, NIT etc come from?

I've been running at 22/9 over the last 7K hands or so, what's that make me?

Originally Posted by OngBonga

I've been running at 22/9 over the last 7K hands or so, what's that make me?

Probably about to go broke!

Read up on how to play small pp's and sets. Your not doing it right!

Someone who limps too much pf.

I think postflop tendencies play a part in this too

"Someone who limps too much pf."

I think I'm flatting too many raises as opposed limping outright, I rarely open limp and I only tend to limp behind with pairs, and half decent suited aces, the rest I raise or fold. I could do with having a good look at my vpip and see where I should be 3betting and where I should be folding, instead of calling.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

"Someone who limps too much pf."

I think I'm flatting too many raises as opposed limping outright, I rarely open limp and I only tend to limp behind with pairs, and half decent suited aces, the rest I raise or fold. I could do with having a good look at my vpip and see where I should be 3betting and where I should be folding, instead of calling.

Yep; someone who limps too much pf.

You also call way too much preflop.

Your PFR isn't horrible ongbonga, though it seems you can probably open more PPs and some of your better suited aces as you put it (if ur IP). Possibly flat less marginal stuff OOP (i.e. fold it) to bring your VPIP closer to your PFR. Dont worry about 3betting too much at the micros, as it's nearly always going to be for value. The widest i'd 3b without would be about QQ+, AKs and that too depends on stack sizes. I'd probably just flat AKs, mayb even QQ (tho some may disagree) with 50bb stacks around me, which isn't too uncommon at the micros.

I think one of the problems, if you can call it a problem, is that hands like 22 up to say 66 just make me too much money at the micros when I do limp in in early. It's almost like I'm hearing "stop doing that thing that makes you money", probably because it will lose me money at higher levels. But at the micros, hardly anyone notices that I limped utg and then called a x5 raise, and then c/r a three handed flop of 259r. They just see their jacks, they do not think about what I have. Anyone who has been paying attention to my game over a large enough sample of hands will make notes and probably run a mile when they see this kind of play from me, even with jacks on this flop, but we all know that the vast majority of people at 2nl are not paying attention, and there is also a higher pool of players, so finding people we have a good sample of hands on is not an easy task. I got 4k+ on a friend who I often share a table with, after that I rarely see someone who I have more than 100 hands on. Therefore, the same must be true of my opponents, very few will have a large enough sample on me to get a good idea of how I play my hands. I don't imagine there's many dataminers at my level.

I appreciate these comments, because I'm trying to trim my hand selection like all the time, I want to be better at poker. It's hands like broadway and suited connectors that I was playing too much oop, these are the hands I'm dumping now, but I just can't do it with 22-99 utg at 2nl unless someone raises too much or the stacks don't give me the required implied odds. PPs are gold dust at the micros, sets are my biggest earner.

Are you guys folding 22 utg? What about if the table is full of loose passive fish and donks that go mental on any flop they vaguley hit? Ie like the average 2nl room at stars? In that event, is a raise better than open limping?

I know 22/9 isn't wild, because I see people who play more hands also making money, but I certainly see tighter players getting paid off when they do hit their set. I don't want to become one of these ubernits that raise JJ+ AK, limp 88-TT and AQ, and fold everything else, because that is not going to make money at higher levels where everyone is running a HUD, plus I'd die of boredom. But I don't want to be a LAG anymore, I want those days behind me. I want a good, solid, profitable game. I got the profitable bit at the moment, but I don't doubt it could be more profitable.

The advantage of categorizing players like this on stars is you can see it from the lobby when table selecting

OK, I need to know really where I'm going wrong, so I'll share my pre flop range for you all to comment on...

Limits 2nl, usually 8+ players, rarely less than 5, looseish table (if it's too tight I'll move), average of 2 outright fish per table while the rest are either poor or average, with the occasional good player. I consider myself average, which is better than 90% of the average table!

Early (UTG -UTG+2), I limp 22-TT AJs AQ, raise AQs+ AK JJ+, fold the rest.

Middle (UTG+3, +4) No limps - I limp 22-66 A2s -A9s 67+, Raise 77+ ATs+ AJ+, fold the rest.
Limp(s) - Roughly same as early
Raise - Call 22-JJ, raise QQ+ AK, fold the rest (I'll adjust if a fish raises)

Late (HJ- BU) No limps - I raise 22+, A2s+, 56s+, AT+, suited broadway, fold the rest (button I'll raise ace rag off suit if it's folded around to me).
Limps - same as no limps, just bigger raise
Raise - Call 22-TT AQs, raise JJ+ AK, fold the rest.

Blinds, SB In a limpfest, I tend to make up with small pairs, sutied connectors, broadway, raising monsters and folding junk, BB I allow a limpfest with hands up to 77, scs, weak broadway, and raise strong scs, 88+, in raised pots similar to early pos range, and just the sb limping I play HU button mode, ie raise any ace, suited king, J9+, 22+ etc.




I would imagine it's obvious that when I limp pp's, I'm set mining, so stack sizes are crucial here, I'm looking for fish yet to act, raiser or limper to have 100bb or more, in which case I'm willing to play my hand for up to 10bb pre flop. Basically if the implied odds are definitely less than 100bb then I will fold small pairs and raise the rest.

Table dynamics, stacks, pos of fish etc, these all play a role and so the above strategy isn't always going to hold true, but it's a reasonable assessment as a whole I think. It's more or less how I run at 22/9.

Tear me to pieces!

Originally Posted by OngBonga

OK, I need to know really where I'm going wrong, so I'll share my pre flop range for you all to comment on...

Limits 2nl, usually 8+ players, rarely less than 5, looseish table (if it's too tight I'll move), average of 2 outright fish per table while the rest are either poor or average, with the occasional good player. I consider myself average, which is better than 90% of the average table!

Early (UTG -UTG+2), *I limp 22-TT AJs AQ, raise AQs+ AK JJ+, fold the rest.

Middle (UTG+3, +4) No limps - I limp 22-66 A2s -A9s 67+, Raise 77+ ATs+ AJ+, fold the rest.
Limp(s) - Roughly same as early
Raise - Call 22-JJ, raise QQ+ AK, fold the rest (I'll adjust if a fish raises)

Late (HJ- BU) No limps - I raise 22+, A2s+, 56s+, AT+, suited broadway, fold the rest (button I'll raise ace rag off suit if it's folded around to me).
Limps - same as no limps, just bigger raise
Raise - Call 22-TT AQs, raise JJ+ AK, fold the rest.

Blinds, SB In a limpfest, I tend to make up with small pairs, sutied connectors, broadway, raising monsters and folding junk, BB I allow a limpfest with hands up to 77, scs, weak broadway, and raise strong scs, 88+, in raised pots similar to early pos range, and just the sb limping I play HU button mode, ie raise any ace, suited king, J9+, 22+ etc.




I would imagine it's obvious that when I limp pp's, I'm set mining, so stack sizes are crucial here, I'm looking for fish yet to act, raiser or limper to have 100bb or more, in which case I'm willing to play my hand for up to 10bb pre flop. Basically if the implied odds are definitely less than 100bb then I will fold small pairs and raise the rest.

Table dynamics, stacks, pos of fish etc, these all play a role and so the above strategy isn't always going to hold true, but it's a reasonable assessment as a whole I think. It's more or less how I run at 22/9.

Tear me to pieces!

* I'm no expert but I can tell it don't take no expert for this. Now you state you are set mining right. Well actually your not just set mining but hoping to either steal or defend as well. If you look at how often ppl are folding it's high like in the 70-80% so you can pick up a lot of moneys when ppl just fold to your standard raise with pp's. If you get called fine so be it. And when you get raised then you have to consider if there is enough money behind to make it worthwhile and is the villain likely to put it in. I go by the 15x rule myself which I picked up by watching a video by jyms. So if I'm raised I and villain have to have at least 15 times the amount of what I have to call in order for me to proceed.
Also when you do hit your set's you now have to get as much money into the pot as possible. By limping your making that more difficult as you are starting off with a smaller pot. Then there are the select times you don't hit your set but a C-bet may take it down as well, this is conditional but should be in your tool box.

Blinds, SB In a limpfest

I would consider this more of a TARDFEST and would not take pride in participation if you know what I mean. We don't strive to play at their level but a level or two or three or more ahead of them. A nice standard raise of 4xbb +1 for each of the tards will take down a shit ton of moniez!

Hope this helps and more so I hope others will help explain this better as I am sure I haven't done the best job. I know I have only skimmed the surface of the topic actually.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

Early (UTG -UTG+2), I limp 22-TT AJs AQ, raise AQs+ AK JJ+, fold the rest.

Middle (UTG+3, +4) No limps - I limp 22-66 A2s -A9s 67+, Raise 77+ ATs+ AJ+, fold the rest.
Limp(s) - Roughly same as early
Raise - Call 22-JJ, raise QQ+ AK, fold the rest (I'll adjust if a fish raises)

Late (HJ- BU) No limps - I raise 22+, A2s+, 56s+, AT+, suited broadway, fold the rest (button I'll raise ace rag off suit if it's folded around to me).
Limps - same as no limps, just bigger raise
Raise - Call 22-TT AQs, raise JJ+ AK, fold the rest.

Blinds, SB In a limpfest, I tend to make up with small pairs, sutied connectors, broadway, raising monsters and folding junk, BB I allow a limpfest with hands up to 77, scs, weak broadway, and raise strong scs, 88+, in raised pots similar to early pos range, and just the sb limping I play HU button mode, ie raise any ace, suited king, J9+, 22+ etc.

I would say that the whole of the above is where you are going wrong.

What I've learnt recently is that you shouldn't have any standard moves or ranges as such, but rather play as loose as you can get away with against any given villain.

So for example rather than having a specific range that you either open raise or limp from the button, you should be looking at the villains in the blinds, figuring out how to exploit them and playing accordingly.

eg if they fold far too much, you can raise ATC until they adjust (if they are even paying attention), if they call too much and fold to cbets too much then plan to exploit that.

I think playing with this in the back of your mind, even if you play terrible for a while, is a better way to learn that just having given ranges for given positions. Figure out how to exploit as many mistakes that people make as possible, then look for people making those mistakes and you will be winning a shitload in no time. I appreciate that this probably isn't as easy as it sounds, but I think it's a better approach.

COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation - Micro Stakes Full Ring Games - Micro Stakes Poker Strategy Forum

This video helped.

Just wanted to thank you HarleyGuy for your response. For the last week or so, I've really changed my pre flop strategy, and my profit is increasing, especially with pairs.

This is what sunk in most...

"Also when you do hit your set's you now have to get as much money into the pot as possible. By limping your making that more difficult as you are starting off with a smaller pot."

I don't limp with the intention of seeing a cheap flop any longer. I'm raising all pairs in all positions in an unraised pot, and calling raises with them if the implied odds are there. I definitely winning more with a set against top pair, often people will raise an oop c-bet when they have top pair to "see where they're at", and in doing so they make it harder to fold to my shove than if the pot was much smaller. Fish will never fold this, but good players will call it when they are pot committed, and fold when it's not worth the risk. It's not worth the risk if it's a limp pot that he's invested 20c in, but if he's invested 50c and has $1 behind, he calls more often, especially if there's no Q, K or A and he still has top pair (or overpair of course).

I sometimes still limp, but this will be a deliberate attempt to confuse someone who has been at the table with me for a reasonably long time, someone who I think is paying attention. He should have noticed I don't limp... so why have I limped? It often makes it easier to bluff post flop, especially if there's a potential flush or straight because it looks like suited connectors, which of course is exactly what it will be!

Thanks again for your post, it has certainly helped me with my pairs.

Can't you just look at their vpip/pfr to figure out ranges and then keep an eye on them for the first 50 hands or so and figure out who is doing what then adjust accordingly? I think you're making things way more complicated than they have to be.

I'd certainly mark the biggest fish so you can identify them in the lobby.

I think categorizing has a great deal of value in poker. For me i dont really care what colors goes with what players, but it allows me to get away with taking way less notes. For example, if i see a 22/18 call ATo from BB v an utg raise ill make a note for sure, thats an exploitable leak i dont expect from tags. At the same time, if i see a 33/10 make that same call, i dont feel i need to make a note.

This is just one example, but i feel it is a worth while habit because it allows us to get away without noting every play every player makes.

Also i feel some sterotypes about poker are correct. It may be wrong to assume a person smokes weed because of how they look, but if you are a dealer I'd recomend talking to the guy with jeans around his ankles before talking to a kid with a yamaka. In the same way we can make assumptions that are more likely to be correct based on stats. I make the assumption that people with stats like 44/7 are going to limp call wide even if i haven't seen them do it.

As to the "categorizing leads to horrific misreads and misplays." comment made earlier, i feel that we just need to take ideas we get off players from their stats with a grain of salt. To continue the analogy, if the guy with jeans around his ankles hopped away when you offered him drugs, its probably better to get off the street rather than run after him regardless of what he looks like.

I need a smoke after reading that post.

I've started playing 8 tables at a time, so note-taking has actually become quite a frustrating task... I will begin a note, then I have 83o pop up on another table and I fold... back to the other table... oh, I have A8s in mid elsewhere... hmm... raise?... of fuck it it's trash, fold... back to my notes AAAHHHH I DON'T WANT 25o!!! JEEZUZZ!!! FOLD!! Now, which guy was it again who called that raise with 87o? Oh, he's gone.
No, I find it easier now to just copy the word "fish" before I get started and paste it into the notes whenever necessary, it's pretty much the only note you need at 2nl, along with your HUD. If I see something truly odd, like a 8/4 over 1k+ hands open shove 250bb deep with AJo from utg (yes I've seen this) then I make a specific note, but for the most part, Mr. Bucket is right, the HUD should be able to give us a huge help pre flop when profiling villains. Often note-taking can be a hinderance, after all, I probably should have raised that A8s earlier, but I was distracted.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

I need a smoke after reading that post.

I've started playing 8 tables at a time, so note-taking has actually become quite a frustrating task....

If you don't have time to take notes then you're playing too many tables. If you keep getting interrupted by other tables then figure out shorthand notes you can understand.

Instead of "limps and calls under the gun and calls a 2/3 pot cbet and will go to showddown with any part of the board"

Use "l/c utg-call cbet down to sd"

Originally Posted by OngBonga

No, I find it easier now to just copy the word "fish" before I get started and paste it into the notes whenever necessary, it's pretty much the only note you need at 2nl, along with your HUD.

Why train yourself to use bad habits while you're trying to learn the game? What's going to happen when you move up and you have the same problem, but against a tougher field?

"What's going to happen when you move up and you have the same problem, but against a tougher field?"

I won't be 8-tabling at higher levels! I know it's a bad habit, but the majority of the field at 2nl I see at my table once and then never again. I'm sure I can improve my note taking a great deal, but honestly, I don't see the point at 2nl, the pool is just so vast. I'll make as detailed notes as possible against winning regs, I expect them to be stepping up before too long also, but even then, are my 2nl notes relevant at higher levels? Perhaps at 2nl Steve1980 plays tighter than he does at 10nl, or perhaps the reverse.

When I step up, I certainly won't be playing eight tables, the only reason I've got that many going is because of the milestone hand promotion on Stars, although my profit is running nicely at the moment, so it might be something I continue to do at 2nl until I reach my target of $200. I'll probably have two running to begin with at 5nl, and for sure my note taking will become more of a priority. But for now, at 2nl, I'm happy to tag the fish and note only the truly unexpected, it's still a lot more than the majority are doing, and it gives me more time to consider what's actually going on now, rather than still thinking about that hand a minute ago.

Consider it a balancing act... I make notes to exploit weaknesses and hence win more money... the same reason I play more tables. I either make less notes or play less tables... With such a vast pool of players, it seems logical that this is where I should make sacrifices. I've doubled my winrate since playing eight tables, note taking could never achieve that at 2nl.

Sigh, don't treat 2nl and 5nl like they're different games. They really, really aren't.

Originally Posted by dranger7070

Sigh, don't treat 2nl and 5nl like they're different games. They really, really aren't.

I hope you're right! I'm running over 2nl, if 5nl is the same game then I can't wait to get there. In that event, if I find 5nl is as easy as 2nl, then I might well 8-table and not make as many notes.

Just how much are notes worth do you think, in terms of an increase in winrate?

Depends on if you're utilizing your notes or not. When I first started I'd note shit all the time then always act without looking at the notes I had on players, often resulting in me losing money. You really have to discipline yourself to take the notes, and then take the time later to utilize them while making your decision.

The worth of them could be negative if you take really shitty notes.

My note that simply says "fish" serves one purpose... to make their seat light up yellow. Right now, that's pretty much what I use my notes for. Sometimes I do make detailed notes about regs, I'll make their seat light up red so I know the note is not simply tagging him as a fish, and I'll take a look at what this note says whenever I have a decision against him, and I'll update it at showdown if needs be. But for the most part, my notes are there so I can see who the fish are at a glance. As I step up through the levels (I hope), I expect the red seats will increase and the yellow seats will decrease.

Yea thats totally fine. My fish tag is the green one (green = go ldo). I don't like using the yellow tag to identify fish since its the default color and if I'm not ready to tag a player a certain color having yellow just be the w/e default is probably best.

I label player types into passive fish or aggressive fish. Once I have that, I take the b/f line against the green ones and be willing to stack of with TPTK on wet boards against the aggressive ones. I also have a note for nit something like 9/5 or tighter. And other note for good aggressive (red tag, have yet to use it at 5nl or 2nl . My notes really help me with my post flop play. Nit raises or passive fish raises your TPTK is almost never good.