Select Page
Poker Forum
Over 1,304,000 Posts!
Poker ForumBeginners Circle

Monsters under the bed

Results 1 to 24 of 24
  1. #1

    Default Monsters under the bed

    How do you guys not become gunshy after running into a series of hands were you are pretty confident of your holdings vs thier range, but low and behold they have the nuts everytime. Not just talking about standard beat here and there.

    Examples would be flopped trips vs flopped boat, set over set.....you get the idea.

    I have run into this wall pretty heavily over the last couple of days, and I find myself questioning my play, losing confidence and wanting to be less aggressive due to it. Tired of thinking I have the best of it just to see I was drawing dead or near to it.

    Top this off with running really bad in AI situations with Table donks/maniacs. Examples AK<10 6, AK<K5s......etc, etc.

    Dropped enough BI to really make me question everything.

    Monsters are under the bed!!!!!
  2. #2
    Stacks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    4,015
    Location
    Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
    If this is upsetting you, then you are thinking about poker incorrectly.

    If you have trips, and their range is solely boats (and you know this), then obv you fold, and to do anything else would be a mistake/spew.

    If you have trips, and their range consists of boats, better trips, worse trips, other worse hands, bluffs, etc, and overall you are ahead of their range, then continuing in the hand is correct. And therefore, folding would be incorrect. This is regardless of whether they show up with a better or worse hand, because you are ahead of their range.

    Basically what I'm saying is if you are ahead of their range, then it really doesn't matter if they show a better or worse hand this particular time. Because on average, you will be the one making money, and they will be the one losing money.

    If you open shove allin preflop with 72 and AA, and those are the only two hands you shove with preflop, I'm calling with KK every time. Regardless of if you have AA 5 times out of 5. Because if I know your range is 72 and AA, I'm ahead of your range on average, and therefore calling is correct.
  3. #3
    Stax, ur responses to BC posts makes me wanna have ur baby <3
  4. #4
    Stacks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    4,015
    Location
    Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
  5. #5
    I think their are two points.
    1. Coping with loosing in a big hand, that just gets easier and as long as your BR management is good you hardly notice it after a while.

    2. You said you were pretty confident of your holding v their range. But were you correct? Did you get the money in as a favourite ? Was his range smaller than you thought? Go over the hands and learn from them, check the betting pattern and ask your self what did that bet mean ? a lot of people try to slow play their monsters with a call and then a massive bet on the end, others like to bet big as soon as you make a move you have to try and recognise these patterns and interpret them.

    Remember most hands are closer than you think all in pre flop from your examples

    AK v T6 is 62% so you will loose 1 in 3
    AK v K5s 71% so you will loose more than 1 in 4

    Check these out on pokerstove and other similar ones it makes the results seem more resonable.
  6. #6
    Stacks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    4,015
    Location
    Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
    Hopeful touched on something I meant to mention..

    IF you are in a spot where you believe you are ahead of their range, but they just "ALWAYS seem to have it", then there are some considerations that need to be made as to your analysis of their range. Either your range is correct, and you were a favorite against that range, therefore you shouldn't feel bad regardless of if they have it this time or not, because as I said you will be the one winning money on average, and they will not.

    Or, your range analysis was incorrect, and therefore your decision may have been incorrect as well. Maybe you assigned them too wide of a range, and didn't have the needed equity to call.

    Expanding on my 'example' of calling your Open shove preflop with KK if your range is {72/AA}, and how it would be correct to call everytime if that was actually your range, regardless of past outcomes (you having AA 5 out of 5 times). However, if I get to a point where I no longer believe you are shoving 72, either I haven't seen it often enough, a change in gameflow, or you've changed gears (whatever reason someone would alter their ranges), then I must re-analyze the situation given your newly assigned range to come to the correct decision. And in this case if you have stopped shoving 72, and are only open shoving AA, then obv calling with KK would be incorrect.

    The decisions you make are based on villain's overall range. It's not based on what you think he has this time. It's on what he could have in this situation. What hands he is playing in this manner. And if you have the appropriate equity to make the decision you are faced with, then you should do so, whether or not he has it this given time, as poker is a game of the long run.

    If you get to a spot where you feel his range should be wider, but you think he just always has it this time, then you probably need to re-evaluate the range you are assigning villains.
  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by hopeful
    I think their are two points.
    1. Coping with loosing in a big hand, that just gets easier and as long as your BR management is good you hardly notice it after a while.

    2. You said you were pretty confident of your holding v their range. But were you correct? Did you get the money in as a favourite ? Was his range smaller than you thought? Go over the hands and learn from them, check the betting pattern and ask your self what did that bet mean ? a lot of people try to slow play their monsters with a call and then a massive bet on the end, others like to bet big as soon as you make a move you have to try and recognise these patterns and interpret them.

    Remember most hands are closer than you think all in pre flop from your examples

    AK v T6 is 62% so you will loose 1 in 3
    AK v K5s 71% so you will loose more than 1 in 4

    Check these out on pokerstove and other similar ones it makes the results seem more resonable.
    Point one is not really an issue, except the small frustration that very little if any progress is being made.

    Point 2, the issue is that I am not correct, and as stated before drawing dead/nearly dead, so it I am getting my money in behind alot. But with strong holdings, not nut hands but strong ones. This makes me want to tighten down and only move forward in hands that are nut hands, because if I am strong, then they have the nuts or near nuts. (I have identified for me that this is my tilt, I usually dont spew, but tighten down to the point where even the nits think I'm nitty.)

    I guess that my issue here is that I am more focusing on my holdings (level 1) and discounting or ignoring my opponents range (level 2). But when I try to consider thier hands now, thats when I see the Monsters under the bed.

    As far as how close hands are. I understand that preflop hands most hands are closer than alot of people realize, however when you are getting the money in good in a half dozen of those situations in a row, and thier 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 wins over a run of 6 hands. It makes you question, do I really need to call this table donks shove with trash or should I just fold my AK and move onto a situation where skill might have some chance of winning against a lesser player, or should I gamble it up knowing that I have had my ass handed to me the last 6 times in these spots. (Already know past does not affect present/future, but I am human.)
  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
    Hopeful touched on something I meant to mention..

    IF you are in a spot where you believe you are ahead of their range, but they just "ALWAYS seem to have it", then there are some considerations that need to be made as to your analysis of their range. Either your range is correct, and you were a favorite against that range, therefore you shouldn't feel bad regardless of if they have it this time or not, because as I said you will be the one winning money on average, and they will not.

    Or, your range analysis was incorrect, and therefore your decision may have been incorrect as well. Maybe you assigned them too wide of a range, and didn't have the needed equity to call.

    Expanding on my 'example' of calling your Open shove preflop with KK if your range is {72/AA}, and how it would be correct to call everytime if that was actually your range, regardless of past outcomes (you having AA 5 out of 5 times). However, if I get to a point where I no longer believe you are shoving 72, either I haven't seen it often enough, a change in gameflow, or you've changed gears (whatever reason someone would alter their ranges), then I must re-analyze the situation given your newly assigned range to come to the correct decision. And in this case if you have stopped shoving 72, and are only open shoving AA, then obv calling with KK would be incorrect.

    The decisions you make are based on villain's overall range. It's not based on what you think he has this time. It's on what he could have in this situation. What hands he is playing in this manner. And if you have the appropriate equity to make the decision you are faced with, then you should do so, whether or not he has it this given time, as poker is a game of the long run.

    If you get to a spot where you feel his range should be wider, but you think he just always has it this time, then you probably need to re-evaluate the range you are assigning villains.
    As far as your first post, I understand your point of only trying to focus on the aspect of making the correct decision, however when you are grinding micros and this type of run happens it is very hard not to take into account how it is affecting the BR. So my question is, if it is proper to only concern yourself to making correct decisions, then how do you desensitise yourself to not care about the affect this has on the BR?

    Success is based on winning. Winning in this game is defined by how much money you win, as is emphazied by everyone posting thier graphs to that effect. I know this is results oriented, but we live in a results oriented world. So if it is proper to not care about this, how do you train yourself to do this?

    Stacks. I understand what you are trying to explain, primarily regarding EV decisions. But when I say I am questioning things I mean more of if I am trying to push edges that don't exist.

    As far as putting opponents on ranges, this apparently for me is a real problem. Maybe I am approaching the process of this incorrectly. Usually I start with what hands beat my holdings, then move onto based on situation what is the likelyhood of my opponent having one of the holdings that beat me. Then I usually make my decision from there.
    Is this approach wrong. If so what is a better process? Also when working on this, how do you maintain/gain confidence in your decisions, with the ultimate goal of trusting your "read"?
  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    8,697
    Location
    soaking up ethanol, moving on up
    Quote Originally Posted by Ztech
    however when you are grinding micros and this type of run happens it is very hard not to take into account how it is affecting the BR.
    try having it happen when you are grinding low or mid stakes. Figure out how to deal with it while it is still cheap. Using decent BRM means it should be pretty easy to deal with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ztech
    Success is based on winning.
    flawed mindset.
    What is winning based on?

    Success is based on making good decisions = +EV decisions. If your decisions are good, then you will succeed. You will win money.
  10. #10
    Great post and great respones ... My only thoughts come from the questions I had when reading your post. Were these all in situations? Did you shove or did they? What were there PT or HM #'s?

    I ask those not for a response, but to make my point. Early on I use to put people on a range and then play rest of hand from initial range. If you have some history with villain ... You need to refine the initial range based on continuation bets and so on. This will allow you to fold alot of these tricky hands against solid players.
  11. #11
    One more tip after reading more ... My answer to your question about how to put them on a range.

    Things I consider how many hands are they playing loose or tight ... What position on the table are they early, middle, late ... Did they limp, 3-bet_ raise previous raiser. These questions should and your history with them should get you started. Then like I said earlier refine it as the hand progresses.
  12. #12
    AK v T6 is BAAAAAAAAAAAARELY a bad beat.

    this actually is a much more important point to understand than it looks on first read.

    it's really important to know WHY AK is good to go all in with in a lot of spots and it has NOOOOOOOOTHING to do with ZOMG AK IS THE FUCKIN' NUTS!!!!

    but anyway, if your BR management/thought process is anywhere near what it should be, then more of your posts would be HH's and asking questions about whether you did things right in a given hand and less of your posts would have titles like "statistical anomilies"
  13. #13
    Stacks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    4,015
    Location
    Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ztech
    As far as your first post, I understand your point of only trying to focus on the aspect of making the correct decision, however when you are grinding micros and this type of run happens it is very hard not to take into account how it is affecting the BR. So my question is, if it is proper to only concern yourself to making correct decisions, then how do you desensitise yourself to not care about the affect this has on the BR?
    I understand this probably your first real downswing. And I remember what it was like when I had my first downswing. It felt like nothing I could do would allow me to win again. I felt like I was playing absolutely atrocious poker, and that I must be terrible to be losing to these players. But.. I only lost something like $100 in the process (10nl). Trust me... It's much harder to lose -$6k over a period of 1.5 months while on a downswing/playing bad while playing 200nl, than it is to lose the 10-20 buyins at 10nl. Get used to it now, because you will have downswings as long as you are playing poker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ztech
    Success is based on winning. Winning in this game is defined by how much money you win, as is emphazied by everyone posting thier graphs to that effect. I know this is results oriented, but we live in a results oriented world. So if it is proper to not care about this, how do you train yourself to do this?
    How do you train yourself to not care about the results? Play more hands. Get more experience. See that variance swings both ways, not just negatively. You will have upswings where you hit every flop. This isn't because your due, or good, it's just the way it works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ztech
    Stacks. I understand what you are trying to explain, primarily regarding EV decisions. But when I say I am questioning things I mean more of if I am trying to push edges that don't exist.
    If the edges don't exist, then that means you are incorrectly assigning villain a range, or incorrectly playing your hand against their correct range.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ztech
    As far as putting opponents on ranges, this apparently for me is a real problem. Maybe I am approaching the process of this incorrectly. Usually I start with what hands beat my holdings, then move onto based on situation what is the likelyhood of my opponent having one of the holdings that beat me. Then I usually make my decision from there.
    Is this approach wrong. If so what is a better process? Also when working on this, how do you maintain/gain confidence in your decisions, with the ultimate goal of trusting your "read"?
    This seems like a pretty terrible method for assigning villain appropriate hand ranges. This probably leads you to believe they always have it. "Oh no.. I only have bottom set... There are 2 sets that beat me... I probably don't want to go allin'".

    Instead, just look at the way in which they are playing. Give them a range preflop that you believe they would play in that manner preflop. It doesn't have to be perfected, just a rough estimate. When you get to the flop is when it begins to come together. Their range should consist of all hands they could have here.. Not just the ones that beat you. Also keep in mind that the range process starts preflop, so if the board is K63, and you don't think he plays K3 preflop, then he isn't going to have it when he suddenly c/raises the flop (obv). And if he does, that just means your range on him was incorrect, and now you need to take that note and re-evaluate his range.
  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by surviva316
    AK v T6 is BAAAAAAAAAAAARELY a bad beat.

    this actually is a much more important point to understand than it looks on first read.

    it's really important to know WHY AK is good to go all in with in a lot of spots and it has NOOOOOOOOTHING to do with ZOMG AK IS THE FUCKIN' NUTS!!!!

    but anyway, if your BR management/thought process is anywhere near what it should be, then more of your posts would be HH's and asking questions about whether you did things right in a given hand and less of your posts would have titles like "statistical anomilies"
    I have taken my beats just like everyone else. But you miss the object of my statement and this post.

    This is why AK is good vs 10 6. to a table maniac running 80/30 shoving 80BB UTG preflop.
    Code:
      1,712,304  games     0.001 secs     1,712,304,000  games/sec
    
    Board: 
    Dead:  
    
    	equity 	win 	tie 	      pots won 	pots tied	
    Hand 0: 	65.402%  	65.23% 	00.17% 	       1117003 	     2871.00   { AcKh }
    Hand 1: 	34.598%  	34.43% 	00.17% 	        589559 	     2871.00   { Td6s }
    So is this right in this given hand?

    The point of the post is when you are running "bad", how do you not become gunshy, and regain confidence in your game and reads.

    If you really want me to post this type of hand and ask if I played it right, I will. But I don't see the value of it.
  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
    I understand this probably your first real downswing. And I remember what it was like when I had my first downswing. It felt like nothing I could do would allow me to win again. I felt like I was playing absolutely atrocious poker, and that I must be terrible to be losing to these players. But.. I only lost something like $100 in the process (10nl). Trust me... It's much harder to lose -$6k over a period of 1.5 months while on a downswing/playing bad while playing 200nl, than it is to lose the 10-20 buyins at 10nl. Get used to it now, because you will have downswings as long as you are playing poker.
    This is not my first real downswing. I have played poker for a while. I took over a year off and recently have started back. Previously turned $50 into a BR for 50NL FR. Also used to play alot of 1/2NL live in some of the underground games around here, and had some pretty big swings with that. I am trying to relearn how to play online, it seems that I am struggling a bit with the psychology aspect of the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
    How do you train yourself to not care about the results? Play more hands. Get more experience. See that variance swings both ways, not just negatively. You will have upswings where you hit every flop. This isn't because your due, or good, it's just the way it works.
    I hear you, but for me it is hard to believe. My journey down always happens much much faster than the journey up.

    Quote Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
    If the edges don't exist, then that means you are incorrectly assigning villain a range, or incorrectly playing your hand against their correct range.
    I agree. But I also know that the edges in this game are not as big as many would think.

    Quote Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
    This seems like a pretty terrible method for assigning villain appropriate hand ranges. This probably leads you to believe they always have it. "Oh no.. I only have bottom set... There are 2 sets that beat me... I probably don't want to go allin'".
    "Monsters under the Bed" -- This is the main topic of this post, how do you condition youself to not fall into this type of mindset?

    Quote Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
    Instead, just look at the way in which they are playing. Give them a range preflop that you believe they would play in that manner preflop. It doesn't have to be perfected, just a rough estimate. When you get to the flop is when it begins to come together. Their range should consist of all hands they could have here.. Not just the ones that beat you. Also keep in mind that the range process starts preflop, so if the board is K63, and you don't think he plays K3 preflop, then he isn't going to have it when he suddenly c/raises the flop (obv). And if he does, that just means your range on him was incorrect, and now you need to take that note and re-evaluate his range.
    I would agree with most of this, with a couple of caveats. First at 10NL the type of tables and opponents I want to play hands with do play K3 all the time. Second, I don't really understand at this level why I should worry about hands that dont beat me. I don't mean hands with draws, I mean hands like AK vs your K3. At this level if I take that wide of a range into account then ATC is their range. So then what is the point? I have questioned before the amount of short stackers at 10NL, I now think I understand a bit more why there are so many of them that play this way.

    Additionally I think that luck/variance plays a much bigger factor in the micros than most believe. I also think that due to this it is much much more difficult to actually have the monster upswing. Otherwise, why would the table donk overcall in a 3bet pot? Because he will flop a str8 with his 95off.
  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by daven
    try having it happen when you are grinding low or mid stakes. Figure out how to deal with it while it is still cheap. Using decent BRM means it should be pretty easy to deal with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ztech
    Success is based on winning.
    flawed mindset.
    What is winning based on?

    Success is based on making good decisions = +EV decisions. If your decisions are good, then you will succeed. You will win money.
    I agree that it needs to be learned at the micros, that is why I am trying to work my way up to the low and mid stakes. BRM is not really a motivator for me, meaning yes I do follow it. But my roll online is nothing that I couldn't replace easily. The wife would bitch a bit......but meh.

    On the +EV comments, I agree. So how did you condition yourself to only look at this, and not your BR or how many BI you are up or down? How do you condition yourself to be this bot and not have high emotions, or low emotions.......only correct decisions?

    Why don't we see graphs posted that have how many correct decisions we made over the course of 50K hands? Because we are all human.
  17. #17
    Stacks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    4,015
    Location
    Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
    It's beginning to look like you are hoping someone will justify your logic, even when you know your logic is incorrect, I suppose for comfort or security sake. Simply put, you know that it's correct to look at the situation as a whole. What 'could' they have here.. Not what they had. We have told you the correct mindset to be in, it is your place to find out where you are currently at, and what you need to do to get to the correct mindset. If it comes from studying tons of hands, and seeing it visually with math, then do that. If it comes from some moments of deep though and reflection, then do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ztech
    Additionally I think that luck/variance plays a much bigger factor in the micros than most believe. I also think that due to this it is much much more difficult to actually have the monster upswing. Otherwise, why would the table donk overcall in a 3bet pot? Because he will flop a str8 with his 95off.
    This is absurd, and I don't see why people insist on saying things like this. Poker is a comparison of your mistakes versus your villain's mistakes.. The money will flow to the individual who makes the less makes (in the long run, certainly.. In the short run, usually). The microstakes players will make way more mistakes than low-mid stakes players. I can understand that you believe there is more luck involved, but it's just not the case. You felting T6 against my AK was a mistake. One that, whether you one this time or not, is making me money. One that I am willing to take, and one that you may say was luck, but I say a winning proposition for me (regardless of outcome).

    Regarding the 95o hand... How can you not see how incorrect it is to say that. Regardless of if he flops a straight or not, obviously overcallng a 3bet with 95o is a -EV play. Why would you assume otherwise just because he wins the hand this particular time?
  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
    It's beginning to look like you are hoping someone will justify your logic, even when you know your logic is incorrect, I suppose for comfort or security sake. Simply put, you know that it's correct to look at the situation as a whole. What 'could' they have here.. Not what they had. We have told you the correct mindset to be in, it is your place to find out where you are currently at, and what you need to do to get to the correct mindset. If it comes from studying tons of hands, and seeing it visually with math, then do that. If it comes from some moments of deep though and reflection, then do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ztech
    Additionally I think that luck/variance plays a much bigger factor in the micros than most believe. I also think that due to this it is much much more difficult to actually have the monster upswing. Otherwise, why would the table donk overcall in a 3bet pot? Because he will flop a str8 with his 95off.
    This is absurd, and I don't see why people insist on saying things like this. Poker is a comparison of your mistakes versus your villain's mistakes.. The money will flow to the individual who makes the less makes (in the long run, certainly.. In the short run, usually). The microstakes players will make way more mistakes than low-mid stakes players. I can understand that you believe there is more luck involved, but it's just not the case. You felting T6 against my AK was a mistake. One that, whether you one this time or not, is making me money. One that I am willing to take, and one that you may say was luck, but I say a winning proposition for me (regardless of outcome).

    Regarding the 95o hand... How can you not see how incorrect it is to say that. Regardless of if he flops a straight or not, obviously overcallng a 3bet with 95o is a -EV play. Why would you assume otherwise just because he wins the hand this particular time?
    Not looking for justification, trying to get others to explain how they cope.

    Based upon this response you wish to squash this type of discussion. You say thinking +EV is the end result to achieve, ok I get that. Then you say it is on me to figure out where I am at in my mind on this AND how to get to the correct end result, ok but I kind of thought that this forum was a way to get help with this. I know where I am at, I have said as much in this post. I am questioning my play, so that is where I am at. As far as how to get to the +EV end result, you have made it pretty clear. Thanks.

    I read an article recently somewhere that addresses your comments on how you think the same luck/variance is at all stakes. I can
    t remember where I read it, but if I do I will send you the link. Basically he broke it down comparing the 2 mathmatically, the reason there is more luck/variance is for the exact reason you stated, there are more mistakes/loose plays made which directly effects/skews the result.
  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Ztech
    Then you say it is on me to figure out where I am at in my mind on this AND how to get to the correct end result, ok but I kind of thought that this forum was a way to get help with this.
    we're trying, but it's hard when every other post itt is you not accepting our advice and telling us about how right you are about everything in life.

    saying that variance is worse at the micros is absolutely preposterous. you do realize that the "people" that you're talking about when you say "people don't realize that blah blah blah" are poker players who all STARTED OUT AT THE MICROS. sure, things have changed since the UIEGA, but i was still at 10NL as of last month, and i'll tell you that regardless of variance, if you go 10k hands without winning money at 10nl and worse, you are playing bad poker. plain and simple. it is soft enough that you can overcome an unfathomable amount of bad beats and still be up over that much of a span.

    just post some hands in the forum, and i promise you we'll be plugging leaks for you in no time.
  20. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    8,697
    Location
    soaking up ethanol, moving on up

    Default Re: Monsters under the bed

    Quote Originally Posted by Ztech
    How do you guys not become gunshy after running into a series of hands were you are pretty confident of your holdings vs thier range, but low and behold they have the nuts everytime
    if i am confident of the strength of my holding against villain's range, but am not holding the nuts, then I will lose sometimes... no problem there. Doesn't mean you'll find me folding 7h8h on 9hThJh too often....

    i investigate how i am assigning ranges, including reviewing hand histories. I note any spots where it looked as though the range I had assigned made not much sense. I make sure that I have confidence in my ability to assign ranges based on some alchemical brew of stats/tells/notes/actions.

    Once I am confident of this, i venture back into the fray - generally having reminded myself that the subset of villain;s range that raises my turn or river bet is typically quite strong.
  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Ztech
    Additionally I think that luck/variance plays a much bigger factor in the micros than most believe. I also think that due to this it is much much more difficult to actually have the monster upswing. Otherwise, why would the table donk overcall in a 3bet pot? Because he will flop a str8 with his 95off.
    orly?
  22. #22
    Stacks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    4,015
    Location
    Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ztech
    Not looking for justification, trying to get others to explain how they cope.
    This is the thing.. People cope in different ways. Some correctly, some incorrectly, Some have an easy time brushing it off, others have a harder time. No-one here can tell you do this and this, and you will be free from tilt. To truly become free from tilt you need to understand the facets of poker, how money flows, as well as understand Expected Value and see the difference between the long run versus the short run. This is something you must understand.. We are providing you the information, you must put it to use.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ztech
    Based upon this response you wish to squash this type of discussion. You say thinking +EV is the end result to achieve, ok I get that. Then you say it is on me to figure out where I am at in my mind on this AND how to get to the correct end result, ok but I kind of thought that this forum was a way to get help with this.
    I'm semi offended by this. I have never tried to squash meaningful discussion, and especially no discussion that could be broaden and encompass theory. As I think learning and applying correct poker theory is the fastest way to improvement.

    This forum is here to help you understand this. And we are providing pretty solid answers. We are telling you that if you are ahead of villains range, then regardless of the result you making money by continuing in the hand. Regarding tilt control, truly understanding that is one of the most important concepts. If you think you understand that, but still find yourself saying "yeah... But I lost money this hand... But hey... Maybe I'll make it in the long run" (as someone I have coached does), then you don't truly understand. Instead of focusing on the result of that one instance, you must focus on all of the possible results of that instance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ztech
    I read an article recently somewhere that addresses your comments on how you think the same luck/variance is at all stakes. I cant remember where I read it, but if I do I will send you the link. Basically he broke it down comparing the 2 mathmatically, the reason there is more luck/variance is for the exact reason you stated, there are more mistakes/loose plays made which directly effects/skews the result.
    I'm sure the results are skewed in the better players favor. To say that luck is more predominant at the micros seems close to saying that skill plays less of a factor. When that simply is as far from the truth as possible. Skill plays a larger factor because villains will be making more frequent and more costly mistakes.

    Either way you look at it, when a player has a larger edge over the villains, the that player is going to make more money in the long run. There might be more variance over the short run due to the frequent wide ranges that the villains will play; however, variance swings both ways (positive and negative). And when you are much more skilled than the villains, the positive will come much more frequently than the negative, and your true winrate will be much higher in the long run, than someone who is less skilled.
  23. #23
    Ztech = Ralph Macchio
    Stacks = Pat Morita
  24. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    8,697
    Location
    soaking up ethanol, moving on up
    ok, here is an example of what I'm talking about above. Was there a monster under the bet this time? sure.

    Villain is a 10-7 nit who 3-bets 4%. His fold to flop c-bet is only 50%. He thinks I'm kinda solid but a bit bluffy sometimes. He will forget that 44 is in my range here, but may fear 66.

    Once he raises the flop I put him on AK/AA/66 - and I consider that to be his stack off range as well. There are 12 combinations of AK, and 3 each of AA and 66. I don't think he will try to pot control turn with AK.
    At the time I brushed it off, set under set happens - no big deal.

    ok, now during session review I looked at this hand more closely. You know, reviewing big winning and losing hands as default, plus all marked hands, plus any others that look interesting.

    I doubt that I will be too terrified of monsters during my next session...

    Full Tilt Pot-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

    BB ($56.25)
    Hero (UTG) ($107.30)
    MP ($104.45)
    Button ($73)
    SB ($36.45)

    Preflop: Hero is UTG with 4, 4
    Hero bets $3.50, MP calls $3.50, Button calls $3.50, 2 folds

    Flop: ($12) 4, 6, A (3 players)
    Hero bets $6, MP raises to $18, 1 fold, Hero calls $12

    Turn: ($48) 3 (2 players)
    Hero checks, MP bets $28, Hero raises to $85.80 (All-In),

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
All content
©  2003 - 2025
FlopTurnRiver.com
Testimonials  |   Terms & Conditions  |   Contact Us  |   FTR News & Press  

FTR is your home for Texas Holdem Strategy, Poker Forum, Poker Tools & Poker Videos
https://www.flopturnriver.com/copyscape.gif
DMCA.com