Quote Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote Originally Posted by finky
Say we have 88, board reads 2367r. We have called the flop bet and raised the turn which was called. How do you feel about a showdown now? In this situation I'm thinking they must have a higher PP most of the time, either we get them to fold it on the river or we shouldent have raised the turn in the first place.
We ran into a hand. Saying the turn raise was a bad idea because it was called is just as result-oriented as saying pushing all-in with AA is bad because KK spiked a King to suck out. However, this isn't obvious to a lot of players.
I see what you are trying to say, and I tend to agree with the point you are trying to make, but you are using a terrible example. There is a huge difference. With AA, you have the nuts and dominate every other starting hand in holdem. Getting it AI preflop is always a +EV situation, regardless of number of callers, who's calling, how much of a rock/fish they are, etc. If KK happens to spike a king on you, you still got your money in with the best of it and you will gladly get AA AI preflop every time.

Now, back to the original example, where you hold a weak overpair on the turn, with position, facing a second barrell. Forget what we think is the best move here (it depends, obviously), and realize that this situation becomes as much a question of position, stack sizes, image, your opponent, etc. than it does about cards. Perhaps even moreso. Getting AA AI preflop is ALWAYS correct, this isn't.

Quote Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote Originally Posted by finky
Just because our raise may have been less than the villians river bet, It may not have and we may have forced ourselves to play a bigger pot than nessecary. Also it forces the villian to have some kind of hand and stops him bluffing more chips at us.
Once we've established he has a hand, I'm not a big fan of trying really hard to push him off of it. The classic mistake our opponents make is that they give too much action. Similar thoughts on stopping him from bluffing. I don't care much what mistakes my opponents make, so long as they are predictable.
Agreed.. unless the opponent is, in your words, a 'nit'. Ideally, you want to push someone off a better hand when you both have pretty much nothing. Especially bad is tossing a lot of money around when you are pretty sure your opponent has a better hand which he isn't likely to fold, but your hand could still easily win at showdown.