Mid PP, whats your line?

Been thinking about how I play mid PP recently and realised I don't have a solid line in this situation, what do you guys do?

100BB Stacks. Aggressive but solid villian (PFR 10-20%, c-bets most flops) opens for his standard 4xBB raise in MP, you have a mid pair (66-99) on the button and call, blinds fold. Flop is raggy rainbow givng you an overpair. Villian leads for 2/3 the pot, his standard opener.

Do you....

A)Fold, no set no bet, Villian could have a higher PP

B)Call, reevaluate the turn, maybe catch another bluff from AK etc.

C)Min raise, to take the lead as the aggressor in the hand

D)Raise pot or more, try and end it there

They all have something going for them but which do you think is best and why?

1) No set, no bet is a little weak here. If he's raising 10-20% I'm not necessarily putting him on a higher PP. I don't think I'm laying this one down to a continuation bet on the flop. You'll have some options how to proceed from here...

2) I don't like a min-raise on the flop. If you min-raise a player with overs can call (with decent odds), and then any over card looks like a scary one to you. Also, I think a min-raise looks pretty weak...It's almost asking saying to the original PFR'er, "Are you sure you're ahead here? I have a good hand, so I raise, but I only min-raised you because I'm not *that* strong." To that, as the original PFR'er, no matter if I have overs or a high PP, I may jam the pot with a big raise and say, "Yes, I have a big hand here, you better fold," whether I do or not.

3) I like the line of calling here and seeing what happens on the turn. If a scare card hits and he bets hard then you can know you're beat and walk away. If a scare card hits and hit bets semi-weak at it, or even CHECKS, you can bet hard knowing YOU will take it down. Even if he bets at it hard again you can always go over the top for your entire stack, which screams you have a set...so you take it down on the turn.

4) You can raise the pot and try and end it here...but this commits a LOT of money to the pot, and you still don't know exactly what you're up against. Is this guy one of those idiots that will ride AK unimproved to showdown like it's the nuts? Again, "it depends" on reads and all of that...

5) Or, you can play it weak here (which I will do occasionally) and just not mess with it. Look for a better spot where you KNOW you're ahead.


Like you said, "all of these have something going for them." As far as what's the best line? "It depends."

I like sticking in a raise somewhere between a min-raise and a "real" raise. Somewhere around 2.5 times his bet or the whole pot. It looks more powerful than a min-raise, but still gets a lot of folds in my 25NL games. You end up offering 3:1 on their money with a raggy, rainbow flop. Most TPBK, 2nd pair, AQ-JT overs will fold. Plus this guy is a mostly tight raiser and c-betting, so you should have some fold equity.

These are tough situations and ones where you absolutely want position.

It depends.. but I like UG's line of thinking, although keep in mind that if you raise, not only is there a good chance of your opponent folding on a raggy flop, but you even if he calls, there's a good chance you will get to see 2 more cards for free. The downside is it's expensive though...

I raise this. UG is right,this is a little dangerous... but I want to test his mettle. If you raise here and he folds, that sets you up if you catch a set, or just want to stone cold bluff him/check/raise him.

Make him pay for being out of position.

call and play turn is good too.... in fact it's almost certainly best to mix up both plays. Problem with a call is that you learned nothing, and he learned alot (unless you always call the c-bet...)

Good points all round

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

3) I like the line of calling here and seeing what happens on the turn. If a scare card hits and he bets hard then you can know you're beat and walk away. If a scare card hits and hit bets semi-weak at it, or even CHECKS, you can bet hard knowing YOU will take it down. Even if he bets at it hard again you can always go over the top for your entire stack, which screams you have a set...so you take it down on the turn.

I think I'm leaning towards this for the reasons you stated, folding seems too weak and raising can lead to the pot get out of control with a hand that could look like utter crap on the turn.

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

4) You can raise the pot and try and end it here...but this commits a LOT of money to the pot, and you still don't know exactly what you're up against. Is this guy one of those idiots that will ride AK unimproved to showdown like it's the nuts? Again, "it depends" on reads and all of that...

Lets say he does overplay AK, do you call all the way to the river or do you raise at some point? Although just calling seems to yeild the most chips he still has 6 outs and by calling hes getting free cards. Fair enough you won't pay him off if he hits but calling 2 big bets in a raised pot just to let it go if an A or K hits the river seems a bit weak and avoidable. This kind of ties in with...

Originally Posted by Lukie

if he calls, there's a good chance you will get to see 2 more cards for free. The downside is it's expensive though...

Thing is, if it was an ego call with AK do you really want to see 2 more cards?

A lot of times I will go with #3 and call to see what happens on the turn. If he improves or has you beat already, he'll let you know with a big bet. Most players will not fire the second barrel on an unimproved AK. He'll either bet hard again (and you can fold), or he'll check/bet weak and you can reraise to take it down.

#4 is tricky. I'm a "bet for information" guy, but I don't want to give up information about my hand too quickly. A raise to the pot here says "I have an overpair, please fold." Sometimes they will, but sometimes they'll *KNOW* that if they cold call and can hit one of their six outs on the turn then they'll have you beat...

Generally I like cold-calling and playing it from there.

raise to 3 times his bet. So if 100NL he opens for $4 you call pot about $10 and he $7's it i raise to $18.
He goes over i fold. He calls i bet a scare card free turn. Whats importnat to me here is whether opp knows where the fold button is when i hit him for a reraise.
Edit: i dint vote my option isnt there.
Edit2: anyone who cold calls or min raises is.... complete for yourself.

either play and raise or just fold.

there's a good chance you will get to see 2 more cards for free. The downside is it's expensive though...

erm....play poker?

lot of times I will go with #3 and call to see what happens on the turn. If he improves or has you beat already, he'll let you know with a big bet. Most players will not fire the second barrel on an unimproved AK. He'll either bet hard again (and you can fold), or he'll check/bet weak and you can reraise to take it down.

Thats a nightmare situation. Put yourself to easy decisions on the flop, not the turn. Calling gathers almost zero info here imo.

{This post has been removed}

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Edit2: anyone who cold calls or min raises is.... complete for yourself.

Wow, nice little flame you stuck in there. Classy. You make an excellent point, too. My favorite part is how you back it up with your reasoning why you shouldn't call or min-raise in a spot like this (I don't like the min-raise either, but I've already stated why). Wait, you didn't explain anything, though, you just flamed me/whoever and that was it....

Question. How would a flopped set play this? He'd probably call and look to get the rest in on the turn. BUT YOU DIDN'T HIT A SET, you say. To that, I say, HE DOESN'T KNOW WE DIDN'T HIT A SET.

Against a thinking player I might play it EXACTLY like this and put more in on the turn. That looks a LOT scarrier than pumping it up on the flop...That's why "it depends" on reads.

Why-ohh-why against a random player could I not call right here? Does my opponent c-bet the turn if he's totally whiffed? My oppoent raises a lot, yes, but even LAGGs get AA/KK/QQ/JJ/TT sometimes too. Why risk all of that money on a flop when you could call and get more information about the turn? Why let the pot get out of control early where if he calls you and a face card hits you're possibly screwed.....and if he goes over the top of you, well, you piss down your leg and fold?

If you are playing your cards and ONLY PLAYING YOUR CARDS then yes, the obvious thing here is to bet like you've got a mid-PP. Your big reraise will announce, "I have a mid PP! I want to take this down right here! If you come over the top of me I'm fucking gone faster than you can say, 'shazam!'" And when your opponent feels this from you, and he has AK OFFSOOT, he'll jam the pot, watch you run, while saying 'lol I just took all ur moneyz.'

Or, he really WILL have AA/KK/QQ/JJ/TT here and you just lost a lot of money holding 66-99. Or he'll call and hit his A/K/Q on the turn and you'll shit yourself and/or lose more money playing that way. I've already said all of this before, but at least I'm EXPLAINING things...

But hey, you seem to know it all. Obviously the best way to play this hand is to play your cards, announce what you have (hey maybe even type it in the chat-box), and see what happens. Last time I checked you were losing more than a grand, though, so anyone that listens to your advice, in this thread or others, is a.....complete for yourself.

Good day.

I would call in this situation...The opponent c-bets a lot. C-betters tend to check/fold if they catch nothing by turn. You own him If he checks on a blank at the turn. If he fires a second bullet, then you would be in a tough position.

Note to self: Don't flame UG.

First
Apologies george. I wasnt flaming you. We play similar limits with different styles so we will disgree. So again apologies. I wasnt flaming you.
Ok now to what you said.
Ok i agree. We can play this like a set. Min raise the flop. Push/ hard bet the turn. I agree thats a good way to play if you think opp can find his fold button.
I also take the point that the pot gets big quickly if you play my way. I think fnord wouldnt be impressed with our pot control in such a situation.
The fact for me is that i dont mind playing biggish pots with marginal holdings when i think im ahead.
Yes i agree we 'tell' what our hand is when we reraise the flop big. That means anybody who can read us knows that pushing any two makes us fold.
but....
1. If opp is good player he knows to fold. Min raising gives nice looking odds for 2 overs
eg 100nl pfr $4
u call $4
blinds fold, pot approx $10
opp bets $7 u raise to $14 Opp needs to call $7 into a $30~pot. Thems not bad odds for two overs (if those outs are live) It would take a good player to know they werei admit.
Cold calling is a better option, but again what info does it give us? If opp throws out a second barrel on a bluff how do you play it? You're raise has to be bigger then i guess on the turn, as opps 2nd 'bluff' will be bigger, as i dont think you can cold call twice. Also, can u just fold if opp bets big on the turn and assume an overpair? thats a lot of reading skillz on hardly any information. Which ever way you look at this imo you need to bet on the flop to get 1. information 2. to conrol pot size, despite the size it gets to. Raising the turn if opp decides to bet at it twice or has an overpair is both making the pot bigger and acting with little information. Again, if opp goes over you can you really call without a set?
So i guess i say act on the flop becasue you gain info for later streets and control the pot more than you would on the turn should you decide to raise. You're also imo assuming that decent players wont fire two barrels at a missed flop. Also, a big second bet on the turn is assumed as an overpair? and you fold. I dont see how you play the turn, id be interested in how you play these if opp fires out another decent sized bet.
My point is that you need to gain info. So if you bet yes you advertise you're hand, but you put the tough decision-making to the opp. If he has Ace high is he still ahead and being bluffed? If he has an over pair do you have a set? or do you just think he missed the flop?
Whatever happens he has a tough decision to make, not you. If he goes over your pp with overs then give him some credit. That takes balls and a bit of skill. As would you're call if you think you're ahead. Same applies to the turn but you've already invested more imo or have to to buy information for a higher price. By all means if you dont agree or want to argue then good, im up for that. Im interested in others play.
And again i apologise i wasnt flaming you. But mini raising and cold calling when opp is only one card behind imo is very dangerous and not worth the risk. Ask opps to play poker rather than taking risks yourself with weak/marginal holdings.
Ill also add that i can then raise and build pots with big hands like sets and two pairs becasue opps know i will bet reraise flops. Therefore they may be tempted to get it all in on top pair on a flop they like or even with an over pair. Im not saying my way is best but my style plus the way i play these type of pots gives me action on most hands.
Plus yes i was on a 1.2k downswing. I fixed that with 5 final tables out of 7 entries into 180man sngs. Downswings happen to us all i guess, as do up swings.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

there's a good chance you will get to see 2 more cards for free. The downside is it's expensive though...

erm....play poker?

erm....a positional raise with a weak overpair on the flop so you can hopefully take it down, but if not, you probably buy yourself the option of betting again on the turn and taking it down or taking a free river isn't playing poker?

usually fold. no set no bet. Occasionally ill call the flop then raise the turn or something along those lines if i sense a weak cbet. only from position though.

Cold calling is a better option, but again what info does it give us? If opp throws out a second barrel on a bluff how do you play it? You're raise has to be bigger then i guess on the turn, as opps 2nd 'bluff' will be bigger, as i dont think you can cold call twice. Also, can u just fold if opp bets big on the turn and assume an overpair? thats a lot of reading skillz on hardly any information. Which ever way you look at this imo you need to bet on the flop to get 1. information 2. to conrol pot size, despite the size it gets to. Raising the turn if opp decides to bet at it twice or has an overpair is both making the pot bigger and acting with little information. Again, if opp goes over you can you really call without a set?
So i guess i say act on the flop becasue you gain info for later streets and control the pot more than you would on the turn should you decide to raise. You're also imo assuming that decent players wont fire two barrels at a missed flop. Also, a big second bet on the turn is assumed as an overpair? and you fold. I dont see how you play the turn, id be interested in how you play these if opp fires out another decent sized bet.
My point is that you need to gain info. So if you bet yes you advertise you're hand, but you put the tough decision-making to the opp. If he has Ace high is he still ahead and being bluffed? If he has an over pair do you have a set? or do you just think he missed the flop?
Whatever happens he has a tough decision to make, not you. If he goes over your pp with overs then give him some credit. That takes balls and a bit of skill. As would you're call if you think you're ahead. Same applies to the turn but you've already invested more imo or have to to buy information for a higher price. By all means if you dont agree or want to argue then good, im up for that. Im interested in others play.
And again i apologise i wasnt flaming you. But mini raising and cold calling when opp is only one card behind imo is very dangerous and not worth the risk. Ask opps to play poker rather than taking risks yourself with weak/marginal holdings.

Remeber the third line of thinking: "What does he think I have". A raise on that flop is just saying "I think you missed, give up" and any further aggression from you will likely get called down by a higher PP or if he's smart can blow you off the hand with a push. With no draws on the board a call can be far more intimidating to a solid LAG who will be cautious of gettng trapped, if he comes out fireing again then he is confident in his hand. I feel this way can gain as much information as a raise and more importantly, does not give your opponent any information to use against you whilst still keeping the pot under control.

With no draws on the board a call can be far more intimidating to a solid LAG who will be cautious of gettng trapped, if he comes out fireing again then he is confident in his hand.

This is true, so Im curious as to whether you are saying you would normally give the pot up unless you are checked to on the turn? Or having 'intimidated' with your smooth call, is there a case for repping trips by winding up a pot-sized raise to his turn bet, or would you think this is -EV knowing you have few outs and you are definately behind if he calls. At micro-limits certainly, if im the villain here I am among one of those 'fish' who has seen too many garbage showdowns to think I should fold my big pocket pair in this situation. At higher limits maybe theres a different mindset.

Depends on reads, board, etc.

I really like the flop call line, but I think we need to mix in a loose raise here and there for Shania. Otherwise, he can c-bet with impunity knowing he's at least seeing a turn card.

Originally Posted by jailhousejoe

With no draws on the board a call can be far more intimidating to a solid LAG who will be cautious of gettng trapped, if he comes out fireing again then he is confident in his hand.

This is true, so Im curious as to whether you are saying you would normally give the pot up unless you are checked to on the turn? Or having 'intimidated' with your smooth call, is there a case for repping trips by winding up a pot-sized raise to his turn bet, or would you think this is -EV knowing you have few outs and you are definately behind if he calls. At micro-limits certainly, if im the villain here I am among one of those 'fish' who has seen too many garbage showdowns to think I should fold my big pocket pair in this situation. At higher limits maybe theres a different mindset.

If your going to raise the turn to rep a set then you have to be prepaired to push any river, Its a risky move, not to be overdone, and you need to know the villian can fold. This is the line where you are most likley to get a better hand to fold, however as you could do this with any 2 its getting a little off topic.

After a call, a cautious opponent is likley to check most marginal hands to you, giving you the option to rep what you want or go for a cheap showdown.

Originally Posted by finky

If your going to raise the turn to rep a set then you have to be prepaired to push any river, Its a risky move, not to be overdone, and you need to know the villian can fold. This is the line where you are most likley to get a better hand to fold, however as you could do this with any 2 its getting a little off topic.

Ummm..... no... I'm raising the turn because I don't want to put any more money into this pot. If he has a clue, then he's pricing some amount of a river bet or outs into his call. We have a hand here we'd really like to showdown against our opponent's range.

That being said, a river bluff is certainly called for at times, but pricing it into our turn raise is just spewing. The fun part of playing back at thinking or tight players is that you can test them for their stack without sticking it all in.

What goes through your head when somebody cold-calls your c-bet? You start to think - he called my preflop raise - then my cbet. If you whiffed OOP, you have to decide how much you want to put into the turn but you are clueless about your opps hand. You can check and react to them or you can cbet again if you missed. If you are wary of a set, then how much to do you want to raise the turn if you missed? If you hit the turn (or flop) you will probably come out firing on any semi-scary board to see what your opp really has.

Therefore, calling puts all the decisions on your opponent without giving away your hand and with the minimum invested. If they check or bet weak you can take it down with any turn card usually. Or if you choose, you can see a free/cheap river card. If they come out firing when A/K hits, you can lay it down with little invested.

Rasing wars when you hold and underpair is rarely +EV. It has to be the perfect situation.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by finky

If your going to raise the turn to rep a set then you have to be prepaired to push any river, Its a risky move, not to be overdone, and you need to know the villian can fold. This is the line where you are most likley to get a better hand to fold, however as you could do this with any 2 its getting a little off topic.

Ummm..... no... I'm raising the turn because I don't want to put any more money into this pot. If he has a clue, then he's pricing some amount of a river bet or outs into his call. We have a hand here we'd really like to showdown against our opponent's range.

That being said, a river bluff is certainly called for at times, but pricing it into our turn raise is just spewing. The fun part of playing back at thinking or tight players is that you can test them for their stack without sticking it all in.

Say we have 88, board reads 2367r. We have called the flop bet and raised the turn which was called. How do you feel about a showdown now? In this situation I'm thinking they must have a higher PP most of the time, either we get them to fold it on the river or we shouldent have raised the turn in the first place. Just because our raise may have been less than the villians river bet, It may not have and we may have forced ourselves to play a bigger pot than nessecary. Also it forces the villian to have some kind of hand and stops him bluffing more chips at us.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Depends on reads, board, etc.

I really like the flop call line, but I think we need to mix in a loose raise here and there for Shania.

WTF is Shania? Did I stay home from school that day?

Originally Posted by finky

Say we have 88, board reads 2367r. We have called the flop bet and raised the turn which was called. How do you feel about a showdown now? In this situation I'm thinking they must have a higher PP most of the time, either we get them to fold it on the river or we shouldent have raised the turn in the first place.

We ran into a hand. Saying the turn raise was a bad idea because it was called is just as result-oriented as saying pushing all-in with AA is bad because KK spiked a King to suck out. However, this isn't obvious to a lot of players.

Originally Posted by finky

Just because our raise may have been less than the villians river bet, It may not have and we may have forced ourselves to play a bigger pot than nessecary. Also it forces the villian to have some kind of hand and stops him bluffing more chips at us.

Once we've established he has a hand, I'm not a big fan of trying really hard to push him off of it. The classic mistake our opponents make is that they give too much action. Similar thoughts on stopping him from bluffing. I don't care much what mistakes my opponents make, so long as they are predictable.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by finky

Say we have 88, board reads 2367r. We have called the flop bet and raised the turn which was called. How do you feel about a showdown now? In this situation I'm thinking they must have a higher PP most of the time, either we get them to fold it on the river or we shouldent have raised the turn in the first place.

We ran into a hand. Saying the turn raise was a bad idea because it was called is just as result-oriented as saying pushing all-in with AA is bad because KK spiked a King to suck out. However, this isn't obvious to a lot of players.

I see what you are trying to say, and I tend to agree with the point you are trying to make, but you are using a terrible example. There is a huge difference. With AA, you have the nuts and dominate every other starting hand in holdem. Getting it AI preflop is always a +EV situation, regardless of number of callers, who's calling, how much of a rock/fish they are, etc. If KK happens to spike a king on you, you still got your money in with the best of it and you will gladly get AA AI preflop every time.

Now, back to the original example, where you hold a weak overpair on the turn, with position, facing a second barrell. Forget what we think is the best move here (it depends, obviously), and realize that this situation becomes as much a question of position, stack sizes, image, your opponent, etc. than it does about cards. Perhaps even moreso. Getting AA AI preflop is ALWAYS correct, this isn't.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by finky

Just because our raise may have been less than the villians river bet, It may not have and we may have forced ourselves to play a bigger pot than nessecary. Also it forces the villian to have some kind of hand and stops him bluffing more chips at us.

Once we've established he has a hand, I'm not a big fan of trying really hard to push him off of it. The classic mistake our opponents make is that they give too much action. Similar thoughts on stopping him from bluffing. I don't care much what mistakes my opponents make, so long as they are predictable.

Agreed.. unless the opponent is, in your words, a 'nit'. Ideally, you want to push someone off a better hand when you both have pretty much nothing. Especially bad is tossing a lot of money around when you are pretty sure your opponent has a better hand which he isn't likely to fold, but your hand could still easily win at showdown.