How Does Position Work for Less Than 10 Players

Hello,

So, I've read a few books on poker, and they all explain that position is a very strong factor in how you should play, i.e. the earlier your position, the better your hands have to be to call/bet/raise.

However, most of these books use a 10 seat table as an example, and say that seats 1-4 are 'early', 5-7 are 'middle' and 8-10 are 'late'. But nowhere have I found an explanation of how this changed as the number of players is reduced.

So my first question is this:

Say you start a hand with 6 players rather than 10? Are seats 1-4 still 'early' and seats 5-6 'middle', with no late seats, or do you scale it so that you still have early, middle and late seats in a similar proportion to a 10-seat table (i.e. 1-2 early, 3-4 middle, 5-6 late?), if you do scale it, how do you scale it for N players?

Secondly, do you constantly update your conception of your 'position' as a hand is played out? i.e. you're at seat 5 in a 10 seat table (middle position), but at a later point in the game 2 players in front of you have folded... are you still in seat '5' or are you now in seat '3' and hence in an early position?

the terms "early", "middle", and "late" position are entirely relative. consider a headsup match - in these games there can be no middle position. they are just game-specific terms to describe where you are seated in relation to the button.

i think of position in terms of proximity to the button. the button is the holiest of holies in no limit holdem, barring some pretty un-common circumstances. so "UTG" (or first to act preflop) in a 9-handed game is 6 seats from the button, whereas "UTG" in a 6-max game is 3 seats from the button (which, if in a 9-handed game, would render it "middle position"). the terms are just relative to the game being referred to. what it effectively boils down to is that it is far harder to win when playing out of position, for a variety of reasons, so this translates to us needing a stronger range of hands when we are likely to play the pot out of position, to compensate for our lack of positional advantage, which is a huge advantage.

here are some posts on position made by people who know far more about it than i do:
- http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...on-183136.html
- http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...on-180924.html

or, alternatively, here is a ton of threads which contain material which could see you well on your way to understanding the importance of position, positional awareness etc, and a million other profitable ideas in no limit holdem

- http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerforum/beginners-circle/ftr-threads-186705.html

Originally Posted by rpm

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Great reply, thanks!

So, how would your theory of 'proximity to the button' tie in with choosing which starting cards to play?

For example, let's say I categorise starting hands into Premium (i.e. AA, AKs, etc), Strong (i.e. 88), Drawing (i.e. 56s) and Garbage (A2o, 59o, 27o), etc. Now, from an early position I would only play premium hands, middle position I would play premium and strong hands, and late position I would play anything but garbage.

At a 10 seat table I know that if I'm more than 6 spots from the dealer, I'm early, so only premium hands. If I'm more than 3 but less than 6 seats from the dealer I'm middle so can play premium and strong hands. And if I'm 3 or less from the dealer, I'm late, so I can play anything but garbage (if the betting behaviour of the rest of the players permits, of course!).

Can you explain to me how this system would apply to, for example, a 6 person table?

Thanks!

just imagine the first 4 people folded. EP and MP might mean something else in fr and 6m, but the last 6 seats should play the same if the first 3 or 4 folded regardless of what you call them

Originally Posted by GSMAnon

Great reply, thanks!

So, how would your theory of 'proximity to the button' tie in with choosing which starting cards to play?

For example, let's say I categorise starting hands into Premium (i.e. AA, AKs, etc), Strong (i.e. 88), Drawing (i.e. 56s) and Garbage (A2o, 59o, 27o), etc. Now, from an early position I would only play premium hands, middle position I would play premium and strong hands, and late position I would play anything but garbage.

At a 10 seat table I know that if I'm more than 6 spots from the dealer, I'm early, so only premium hands. If I'm more than 3 but less than 6 seats from the dealer I'm middle so can play premium and strong hands. And if I'm 3 or less from the dealer, I'm late, so I can play anything but garbage (if the betting behaviour of the rest of the players permits, of course!).

Can you explain to me how this system would apply to, for example, a 6 person table?

Thanks!

you seem to have the right idea, on a base level, about how our position affects the playability of certain hands. in any winners database (i'm assuming), you will see a correlation between their position at the table and their VP$IP (Voluntarily Put $ In the Pot) percentage. obviously it increases as they get closer to the button, which naturally makes more hands playable. however, the concept of position and it's relation to starting hands is infinitely more complex than lumping hands into catoegries based on their strength, and decreasing the required strength of your hand range as you get in later position (though that's a solid fundamental starting point). to be honest, you are probably best posting some hands for analysis/discussion here in the beginner's circle, or live poker forum, or whichever forum is relevant to what you play (read the guidelines for posting hands first). by engaging in poker discussion, reading and absorbing the strategy posts made by good players in the thread i linked for you at the end of my last post, as well as the beginner's digest (near the top of this forum), and putting in some hands, you will start to get a better feel for how these concepts work and what strategic implications they have - probably more effectively than you could via theoretical discussion like this.

as for the last bit of your question, basically (i could be wrong, but this is my opinion), it all boils down to proximity to the button. so i will be playing roughly the same hand range when i am UTG in a 6-max game (3 from the BU), as i would if i was in Middle Position in a 9-handed game (still 3 seats from the BU) because they are effectively the same position.


caveat:
the last bit may not be 100% true because there are differences in the way 6max games play compared to full-ring games which may cause us to make slight changes in our preflop ranges in what are effectively the same positions. but for a beginner, i think it's solid advice.