Hand reading At Donk Level

Picking up from hand I mentioned in http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=62780 and a thread I made in the MTT section.


How do you read players at donk levels? Generally they're very loose and aggressive, they bet/raise/all in with absolutely nothing.

I see guys with 4-9os calling an "all in" from not one but 3 other players!?!? Conversely, I see guys bet 90% of their stack at each round only to fold to a min bet on the river.

With KK, I raised to 6xbb, one caller, flop lands Q85, I bet, villain reraises, I call and he shows 58. Who can legislate for 58 being in the hole when they call such a large pre flop raise?

Now, I must be doing something right as I win far more than I lose. And I used to be pretty good at reading (before I started playing MTT freerolls) but still, opinions please. "Proper theory" goes out of the window at the <$10 SNG/MTT level.

My - perhaps paranoid - concern is that my success is/was not through getting read but just down to knowing that my hand is the best or is beat - even though in both cases, I have no idea what villain has).



Also, is there anyone who understands EV and would be willing to go over it 1 on 1 - via email or, preferably, chat? I've read the 2 articles at FTR and I slip into a coma each time.

Q:

Originally Posted by Thunder

How do you read players at donk levels?

A:

Originally Posted by Thunder

Generally they're very loose and aggressive, they bet/raise/all in with absolutely nothing.

Just get your chips in with the best of it.

Originally Posted by Warpe

Just get your chips in with the best of it.

That's about it really. I always bust out of these things when some banana 3bets all in with 94o and hits trips 9's. It's frustrating but Warpe is right.

Their play is not really that random. You can still read hands if you open your mind.

as for "chatting," i think that would be what the FTR Chat Room is for, yes?

if only anyone was ever in there..............HEELLLLLLOOOOOOOO? Bueller?

sometimes i get an echo in there.

c'mon boys, lets check in there more frequently.

it would also be easy enough, through a pm, to pre-arrange a time to meet in the chat. as you will often be alone in there...lol.

Yeah, the chat room is "Beuller? Bueller? Beuller? Bueller?"

SO, if any1's up for it, pm me!

I think the key point is that if you're playing "correct" poker (however it can be described) and the villains are playing badly, "incorrect" poker (small/min raising, chasing draws, playing any two suited, calling down with marignal hands), the number of times they suck out on you with an unlikely or stupidly played hand is vastly outweighed by the number of times you take their money when they, say, call down your pot size bets on each street with A4 on an Axxxx board.

Originally Posted by Thunder

How do you read players at donk levels? Generally they're very loose and aggressive, they bet/raise/all in with absolutely nothing.

I don't really think this is true. The loose part is, certainly, lots of limping and calling, but by and large only a small number of maniacs, and an even smaller number of decent aggressive players, will actively bet and raise with any regularity. Perhaps one just notices the ones that do because they tend to be vastly OVER-aggressive.

Instead, see it as a plus. The over-aggro players are much more likely to donate you their stacks than the weak passive players, so make an effort to identify them and adjust your game accordingly.

Playing the weak players is easier - simply value bet and take note when you get raised, because it's almost always kosher. That's the other good thing about this level - the vast majority of the plays they make are obvious, "honest" if you will.

So in short, don't get too caught up with developing reads on individuals - rather, figure out what "type" they are and play accordingly verses the appropriate range

Originally Posted by biondino

I think the key point is that if you're playing "correct" poker (however it can be described) and the villains are playing badly, "incorrect" poker (small/min raising, chasing draws, playing any two suited, calling down with marignal hands), the number of times they suck out on you with an unlikely or stupidly played hand is vastly outweighed by the number of times you take their money when they, say, call down your pot size bets on each street with A4 on an Axxxx board.

this is true, but we tend to only remember the times we get sucked out on. we wonder, "how come my bankroll is growing when i am taking all these bad beats?"

and i think that "classifying" players into types is a very good practice to follow at low stakes ring games, too. i think OP made comments regarding to MTT's, but the same can apply towards ring here.

the number of times they suck out on you with an unlikely or stupidly played hand is vastly outweighed by the number of times you take their money

I agree. But as stated, I am considering the prospect that maybe my success thus far has been down to "good poker" rather than placing villains on hand ranges. "Good poker in the dark" if you will.

And this concerns me for all good players can place their opponents on hands. And as my intention is to be able to move up the buy ins then this is going to be quite essential, is it not? Especially when spotting bluffs, dealing with close calls like when you feel both of you have got a piece of the flop, or figuring whether your hand is still in the led despite missing the flop. And of course, knowing your opponent's range, means it's easier for you to run bluffs.

With regards to the reckless play, I am probably seeing it more as I've been playing MTTs recently, mostly freerolls. And they're madhouses in the early stages and then in the latter. And are extremely painful when you lose when they were so far behind as to be outta sight.

In these tourneys, I find it very hard to quantify as 8Q goes all in as often as AA.



I suppose you could expand the question to "how do you read loose aggressive players?"

I've also been tying myself in knots these past few days, as I've ran into every single "sterotypical bluff play" that have actually been monsters. The insta all in bet when a scare card appears - the guy really did have it; slow playing rockets, to the end, despite flush draws, so it's been even harder to gauge where I'm at as I think "well I doubt he has anything 'cos he'd slow play trip K but then again he may have the nuts and very eager!" or "his min bet means he's missed but then again he may be intending to look weak" and as a result I don't know where I am in the hand and it's down to suck it and see"



BTW, comments like "if you open your mind up" aren't exactly helpful. Especially as it is, hence me being here.

i come from a cash game background, but used to play more MTTs. and, LAGgy players like to push small edges...the good ones. the bad ones just like to push. you have to discern the two by watching and note taking.

look for patterns. does he bet small when he hits the flop? how does he play in bigger pots? does he 3bet with crap, or solid holdings? things like that.

but, in general, i take my chances with TPTK against them by raising the flop, if they dont drop, i fire again on turn, if checked to. but, thats all so general, it is probably barely even helpful.

as for "reading the donkeys." i would say that standard abc poker is profitable enough. i wouldnt try until i graduate past the complete fish fests. i would, 90% of the time, just play my cards against a likely range and the board. you will beat them more times than not.

you cannot make moves on the unpredictable, donkey players. dont try.

Originally Posted by Thunder

I've also been tying myself in knots these past few days, as I've ran into every single "sterotypical bluff play" that have actually been monsters. The insta all in bet when a scare card appears - the guy really did have it; slow playing rockets, to the end, despite flush draws, so it's been even harder to gauge where I'm at as I think "well I doubt he has anything 'cos he'd slow play trip K but then again he may have the nuts and very eager!" or "his min bet means he's missed but then again he may be intending to look weak" and as a result I don't know where I am in the hand and it's down to suck it and see"

Well, if you think about it, this is kind of what poker is about - when you get to the point where you play against strong players, their strength lies in making plays which could as easily be a set as air, or whatever. The plus in your case is that it may seem that these players are playing unpredictably, and as a whole they might be; but once you have identified the *type* of player they are individually, it becomes easier to make the "right" decision.

In these situations, then, when you haven't been able to build reads on the individuals making these moves, all you can do is play "correct" poker - try and put them on a range and bet/raise/call/fold accordingly. In an MTT, as you know, chips gain value as you get towards the bottom of your stack, so often caution is the right play.

Thx guys.

It's just weird when you see someone betting on innocuous flops, especially after a raised preflop pot. I'm like "WTF?! All in on a 237 flop? Can they really have K7, A4???"

Since I started this thread, I've been reading opponents in SNGs, especially when I am not involved, and am doing quite good. I find it quite easy to spot when a bet means they've missed the flop. Of course, some had overpairs to the board. And the odd one was genuine but still, a read is a read and you gotta start somewhere.

And guessing a bluff of A10 - and it's actually AJ - or guessing K8 (to make a pair of 8s) when he really has J8 is good enough for me! I also find it easier to gauge when I am not involved. Which isn't the most useful way!

The paradox with " try and put them on a range and bet/raise/call/fold accordingly" is that though it's true; when you see a villain play 37o as keenly as KK, it can be quite hard - and dangerous on a 37Q flop - hence this thread.

It just concerns me that the ABC poker is just percentage play - and emphasis on your cards. That makes you a card player and not a poker player. Granted, it's more than good enough to profit at $5 -$10 SNGs but in the grand scheme of all things poker, I don't wanna be stuck on ABC poker forever. Certainly not when at the final table of the WSOP



The irony of all this is that though hand reading should get better as a player improves, at the pinnacle of the game, the really great players will play any 2 cards and disguise their hand at the same time. So even a flop of 367 can be just as deadly as QKA.

Originally Posted by Thunder

It just concerns me that the ABC poker is just percentage play - and emphasis on your cards. That makes you a card player and not a poker player. Granted, it's more than good enough to profit at $5 -$10 SNGs but in the grand scheme of all things poker, I don't wanna be stuck on ABC poker forever. Certainly not when at the final table of the WSOP

The thing is, even at the final table of the WSOP "playing the percentages" (or getting your chips in the pot when you believe you have the correct equity relative to the pot odds on offer) is the core of good poker!

The problem with watching those WSOP hands that make it to the TV is that they tend to focus on those hands where somebody pulls an outrageous bluff based upon table image, reads etc. and ignore the "boring" hands where all that happens is that somebody plays straightforward poker.

ABC poker will take you a long long way - certainly I haven't seen any need to pull too much crazy stuff at the buyins that I've played (up to $60 SNGs and 100NL cash). I've reviewed HHs from higher buyins and a solid ABC style will take you a long way in those games too. The tricky stuff only really becomes necessary at very high buyins (like $500) where everybody has ABC poker down pat and is very familiar with everybody else's play, so switching gears, being tricky etc. becomes necessary to eke out a small edge. The thing is, those tricky plays are built upon a very solid foundation of ABC poker.

Hand reading
1. Do i like my hand? Yes
2. Is my opponent likley to raise/stack off with worse? yes
3. Im stacking off.

hand reading done.
At these stakes its about getting a hand made and getting it paid. Im probably not folding tptk ever and i certainly arent folding a set ever

I read a good article once which demonstrated that in a sample hand played by a beginner, a mediocre player, a good player and an excellent player, the beginner and the pro both made the same play (the winning one) and the mediocre and good players both made the losing play. This isn't, of course, because the good player was playing like a fish or the beginner got lucky - it was to do with the levels on which they think - but it did point out the innate paradox of poker, which is that bad play and good play can be one and the same. The thing is, though, it usually isn't, and certainly at micro MTTs you won't be getting anyone thinking on the 3rd or 4th levels.

Originally Posted by Thunder

when you see a villain play 37o as keenly as KK, it can be quite hard - and dangerous on a 37Q flop - hence this thread.

Of course this happens - we've all seen it, and most probably have all done it. But actually it's only a small minority of players (shrinking to a TINY minority once you get up to the low-mid stakes) who do this, and identifying them is not only vital, but almost always extremely easy. In MTTs, of course, if 37o busts you then there's not a lot you can do about it in the short term, but thinking long term, as you have to do in all forms of the game, you'll know next time you come up against a guy like this he's far more likely to stack off to you than the other way round.

As Tai says, a huge proportion of poker is ABC, and not being able to play ABC poker pretty much automatically means you'll never be able to develop the judgment you'll need for situations where you need to go beyond the automatic. My father once pointed out to me that the reason people like Picasso or Kandinsky or Pollock could create great art that was nothing like traditional art was because they had a perfect understanding, built through study, appreciation and practice, of what the fundamentals of classical art were - poker is the same.

Guys,


Some excellent responses, thanks.

Just to be clear when I talk about ABC poker, I mean to say playing only my cards in relation to the board, playing with solid starting hands, and not trying to bluff or getting cute by playing 37o.

I am not denoucing ABC poker at all, I just want to develop my ability to read/put opponent on hands - be it to run a bluff or just know where I am. Nothing worse than scoring on the flop, betting 3/4 pot and having it smooth called. Then same again on the turn.

Miffed's advice was simple and straight to the point. I like that. The downside though is that you can find out too late. Just 30 mins ago, with blinds at 30/60, I raised to 200 with JJ. Got 2 callers. Flop was 4-7-10 and pot was 690. A guy pushes all in with QA, spikes the ace on the turn and I am left on life support with 230 chips and 9 players left.

The good news is that I battled back to a money spot, and was chip leader in the final 3 until he stuck another 2 bad beats on me and I finished 3rd, but the point is I couldn't forsee he'd be so crazy, especially as in early stages he folded quite a few hands.

Maybe at low stakes it's largely irrelevant anyway, as I've frequently had my top 2 pair cracked by bottom pair landing a set on the river and as the example above shows, if these guys will shove with nothing on the board, reading them correctly and knowing you're ahead ain't gonna stop them sucking out on you.

However, it sure would stop me betting my TPTK into some ragged 2 pair. And give me more confidence to call an all in on the flop when I hit a piece and feel he is bluffing.

if these guys will shove with nothing on the board, reading them correctly and knowing you're ahead ain't gonna stop them sucking out on you a tiny proportion of the time while you rake in the cash the rest of the time

Fixed your post

I've frequently had my top 2 pair cracked by bottom pair landing a set on the river and as the example above shows, if these guys will shove with nothing on the board, reading them correctly and knowing you're ahead ain't gonna stop them sucking out on you.

There's a common misreading of the game in evidence here. When you play decent players who only play good or potentially good hands, you will still get sucked out on (an AK4 board where you have 44 and he has AK will suck out on you just as often as 469 where you have 44 and he has 96, but you wouldn't criticise him for playing AK) but you will also be beaten more often by genuinely good hands.

It's a hopeless task, fretting about terrible players sucking out on you, and focusing on these players. Don't focus on them, except to ensure you play aggressive, proper poker against them. I know it seems like donks are doing this shit all the time, and in freerolls, it'll certainly happen a loit more; but you will find that the great majority - especially when you play fees with buyins - don't do this. It's simply not worth fretting over when there are any number of other things about your game you can be working on and improving.

Miffed's advice was simple and straight to the point. I like that. The downside though is that you can find out too late. Just 30 mins ago, with blinds at 30/60, I raised to 200 with JJ. Got 2 callers. Flop was 4-7-10 and pot was 690. A guy pushes all in with QA, spikes the ace on the turn and I am left on life support with 230 chips and 9 players left.

dude, this shit happens. you got it in while ahead, but who blames the AQ for chasing here? its not a total donkey play, imo. it may not be something i would have done, but its not the worst shit i see. if you had AK, he prolly bumps you off that hand.

according to pstove, you are about 75/30 there. good call. you should hope all your situations look like this.

variance is a bitch. NEXT TOURNEY!

oh, and as far as "abc poker," just talk to dan harrington about how far it can take you. i'd say he stays in line most times, and he seems like he's pretty good. but, maybe thats just me.

Originally Posted by Thunder

Miffed's advice was simple and straight to the point. I like that. The downside though is that you can find out too late. Just 30 mins ago, with blinds at 30/60, I raised to 200 with JJ.

It depends on your position, but when I used to play SnGs, I would routinely fold JJ and AQo in EP during the early stages of a SnG... or perhaps limp the JJ if the table was passive early. Micro-SnG strategy for me was always... be patient enough until you know the players at your table, bleeding as few chips as possible.

Sorry that may be off topic...

Originally Posted by Thunder

Guys,


Some excellent responses, thanks.

Just to be clear when I talk about ABC poker, I mean to say playing only my cards in relation to the board, playing with solid starting hands, and not trying to bluff or getting cute by playing 37o.

I am not denoucing ABC poker at all, I just want to develop my ability to read/put opponent on hands - be it to run a bluff or just know where I am. Nothing worse than scoring on the flop, betting 3/4 pot and having it smooth called. Then same again on the turn.

Miffed's advice was simple and straight to the point. I like that. The downside though is that you can find out too late. Just 30 mins ago, with blinds at 30/60, I raised to 200 with JJ. Got 2 callers. Flop was 4-7-10 and pot was 690. A guy pushes all in with QA, spikes the ace on the turn and I am left on life support with 230 chips and 9 players left.

The good news is that I battled back to a money spot, and was chip leader in the final 3 until he stuck another 2 bad beats on me and I finished 3rd, but the point is I couldn't forsee he'd be so crazy, especially as in early stages he folded quite a few hands.

Maybe at low stakes it's largely irrelevant anyway, as I've frequently had my top 2 pair cracked by bottom pair landing a set on the river and as the example above shows, if these guys will shove with nothing on the board, reading them correctly and knowing you're ahead ain't gonna stop them sucking out on you.

However, it sure would stop me betting my TPTK into some ragged 2 pair. And give me more confidence to call an all in on the flop when I hit a piece and feel he is bluffing.

One thing i think you also under estimate is how long it takes you to dvelop any idea of what your opponent is actually holding.
Bad beats will happen, if hes shoving AQ on a low board then his move is probably +ev in lots of situations when you have nothing, however on the occasions he shoves we have something and he sucks out then we say meh, nice 25%er or w/e because playing like that makes us money.

Wow - my post disappeared.

Basically I just remade the point that this thread is not about bad beats but about wanting to develop my hand reading skills and I also wondered if it's not that relevant at the stakes I play at (which will soon be $20 SNGs).

As said, nothing worse than having your bets smooth called and not knowing where you are in the hand.

Perhaps I push too hard and focus on too much too soon but I've always done that in areas I want to excel in and I think it's no coincidence that I achieved those goals.

Chopper, I know that stuff happens and it wasn't a whine about being beat - just to illustrate a point based on Miffed's reply.

I know it can take over an hour to figure a guy out, and perhaps that is a negating factor a smost SNGs are finsihed within 40 minutes. And if so, should I not be too concerned about reading my opponents and just focussing on the hands and the cards on the board?

I am just concerned that I may become extremely 1 dimensional if that is the case - hence the comment about playing cards rather than playing poker.

Originally Posted by Thunder

I know it can take over an hour to figure a guy out, and perhaps that is a negating factor a smost SNGs are finsihed within 40 minutes. And if so, should I not be too concerned about reading my opponents and just focussing on the hands and the cards on the board?

I am just concerned that I may become extremely 1 dimensional if that is the case - hence the comment about playing cards rather than playing poker.

I think this gets back to the point that was made previously of not trying "read" a specific player quite as much as just trying to classify him into a type of player. That doesn't take me an hour, and I'm not any good at reading hands/players either.

It'll take more than just a couple hands, but not too much more.

It's usually easy to tell if a certain player has no problem getting involved frequently, against who you'll want to have a hand at showdown(though not necessarily the nuts), or if he is someone who is going to play tight and not take any chances unless he has a very good hand (steal pots from this guy and back off when he wakes up). (fwiw, I've been playing the $5 SnG's on stars)

Then of course you watch for them to change modes as you get further in the tourney, but I haven't found too many players smart enough to do this at the lowest levels.

As you get more time with a players, you might be able to fine tune your play against them, but I haven't had that become much of a factor for me up to this point.

Originally Posted by Thunder

As said, nothing worse than having your bets smooth called and not knowing where you are in the hand.

Perhaps I push too hard and focus on too much too soon but I've always done that in areas I want to excel in and I think it's no coincidence that I achieved those goals.

i couldnt agree more. i have the same problem in tourneys. i always look back at what busted me, and think, "i pushed too early and unnecessarily there."

Originally Posted by Thunder

Chopper, I know that stuff happens and it wasn't a whine about being beat - just to illustrate a point based on Miffed's reply.

i hope you didnt take that the wrong way. i was just saying that "shit happens." i didnt think it was a "whine." i thought you were upset for the wrong reason. you made the right decision, and got outdrawn. simple as that. it was more congratulatory that you made the right call, and to remind you to not get yourself "down/bummed" when you were right.

Hi Chopper,

yeah I too have thought "why did I push when it wasn't needed". When I mentioned pushing too hard, I was referring to the pressure and expectation I put on myself to develop - in any discipline - and how quickly. But yeah, you always kick yourself after you've been busted, lol.

What it seems to me is that you're worrying about becoming one-dimensional when at your current level, one-dimensional poker is all you really need. So what I'm saying is this isn't just fine, it's actually good for your game because it makes you concentrate on the basics that will be fundamental to your play as you move up in stakes and play against more skillful villains. It's almost impossible to focus too much on the fundamentals - the more you practice playing "correct" poker, the more it becomes second nature and the more it provides you with the basis for making more interesting plays.

Although your desire to grow as a player is admirable, it's simply not going to be possible to do this against players who only think one-dimensionally. The plus side is that the players you'll encounter on the next couple of levels up aren't a good deal better, though a lot more of them will have a decent grasp on the fundamentals, so you will need to be able to at least match them on this level. Even here (I am thinking the $5-$10 tourney levels), you will make the vast majority of your profit against donks who make fundamental errors, but you will be able to begin to experiment with more interesting moves against the players whose ABC skills are fine but who can't deal with people thinking outside the box. So really, until you're at this stage, any frustration at not being able to explore higher-level poker will actually retard your progress rather than helping it.

Poker is all about understanding your opponent and playing accordingly. The best example of this is when you are in a hand vs a calling station and you try and complex multi-street bluff with air. You will lose - not because you played badly in a vacuum, but because the opponent you were playing was not sophisticated enough to make the leaps of judgement your play required he make.

Thx for that Bion, it really made a lot of sense. I've always been like that, focusing on more advanced areas than my current level. The fact that 1 dimension is what is needed right now is a big plus.

Although running higher level moves wasn't the main gist of the thread - reading and understanding my opponents was (and as you say, it's what poker is about) - it is actually a fundamental issue of my overall level of play and so was very helpful, so thx .

It's interesting that you mention frustration and hinderence as I am about to start a new topic on that.