tilt rant in irc http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...rc-173340.html
here's something decent from quite a while back, but why not
<suspenders> um
<suspenders> reads, where we're going we don't need reads
<suspenders> (but really we do)
<daven> 29-22-3, 60% attempt to steal, 50% fold to 3-bet, 45% cbet, 0% fold to cbet (0/4), 120 hands
<daven> is what my hud told me
<daven> he knows that sb is calling atc
<suspenders> PF standrad for you?
<daven> depends on table
<daven> usually i open fold
<daven> obviously, but sometimes...
<daven> the nits were respecting my ep opens although i guess it is a kinda marginal play to iso the sb
<daven> sorry, bb
<daven> like, i was ubernit this morning session
<daven> 2k hands at 15-11
<suspenders> let's say the river is a 2-5
<suspenders> what's your decision and sizing
<daven> ok, villain's range is good to know here
<daven> and that's kinda wide pre-flop
<daven> 22-JJ, scs, broadways, Axs
<daven> calling the flop with any piece/made hand and even some draws
<daven> turn he folds a lot
<daven> by the river the value is kinda thin
<daven> but without thinking i bet-fold
<daven> if 2-5
<daven> or Q-A
<daven> river J/9/8 i check behind
<daven> 7/6 i bet-call ldo
<daven> hand on, bet-call q
<daven> sizing for both is $13
<kiwiMark> daven: ouchies, re: riots
<kiwiMark> Anyway, I'm off now
* kiwiMark is now known as kiwiMark|drinks
<daven> have fun, watch out for upstairs windows
<suspenders> I don't get $13
<suspenders> are you trying to rep thin value b/c that's silly with our hand
<daven> um, it is thinner than it first appears
<suspenders> right but your bet sizing reps your hand
<suspenders> silly billy
<daven> yeah, true.
<daven> but nobody cr bluffs like ever
<daven> it also reps scared overpairs
<suspenders> right
<suspenders> which sucks if on like a 2-5 river he has 99/JJ/etc
<suspenders> hard to put you on Tx opening UTG+1
<daven> and also reps scared AK
<suspenders> and most players would assume you aren't getting 3 streets from JJ+
<daven> ok, so sizing then?
<daven> like, i check KK any river here
<daven> but i bet TT the same size
<suspenders> upper 20s probably
<suspenders> right
<suspenders> so ppl should look you up somewhat lightish here
<suspenders> with a bigger bet
<suspenders> smaller bet as I said reps hands like KK
<suspenders> I might bluff with those sizes if somehow I got here with one
<suspenders> I think that's a mistake
<daven> why?
<suspenders> b/c w/ $13 you're never bluffing
<daven> on a blank river he's only raising hands >> T9 here
<daven> and he's likely c-r all hands > T9
<suspenders> we're still discussing a 2-5 river
<suspenders> right
<daven> if i bet small with TT = max value line? or ?
<suspenders> no
<suspenders> look his range seems fairly week on a 2-5river
<suspenders> 88/99/JJ
<suspenders> stuff like that makes by far and away the most sense
<daven> 66/77
<daven> 66/77/88/99/JJ
<suspenders> ok fine w/e
<daven> or?
<suspenders> we're valuebetting
<daven> i guess he donks river with a good hand
<suspenders> so let's forget about 66/77
<suspenders> and talk about maximzing value from 88/99/JJ
<suspenders> perhaps even QQ
<suspenders> I mean your'e opening UTG+1, I'd flat QQ there
<daven> um, are we going to give him a range ?
<suspenders> lol
<suspenders> that's what we're doing boss
<daven> don't get a tat
<daven> get a scar
<daven> way cooler
<dranger_libertyinsandiego> and lolagreed daven
<dranger_libertyinsandiego> but the Corps is a lil more lenient on tats than brands lol
<daven> so, you like it as played? based on river - but we gotta think about other rivers?
<daven> so, ok with flop and turn play?
<daven> cos they own you and a brand is someone else may own you?
<suspenders> what else were you supposed to do
<daven> good, just checking!
<daven> ok, so river 3-5 are the only interesting scenarios then
<suspenders> nah J-A
<daven> J i check behind, Q i go broke
<suspenders> checking back the jack seems like a mistake
<daven> i just don't see him calling much on a jack river
<dranger_libertyinsandiego> ok
<daven> and it's bet-fold
<dranger_libertyinsandiego> g2g
<dranger_libertyinsandiego> ill post some pics of my new tat tomorrow probx
<dranger_libertyinsandiego> probs*
<dranger_libertyinsandiego> later
<suspenders> against 66-QQ on the river
<suspenders> on a 6TT7J board
<suspenders> with half the 88/99 combos taken out
<suspenders> you're dead even
<daven> sure, now, split that into 3
<daven> hands he calls, hands he folds, hands he raises
<daven> and add some JT/T9/AT
<daven> he calls QQ
<suspenders> really not expecting him to have those Tx hands ever
<suspenders> pretty stunned at ATo tbh
<daven> um, T9/JT/AT are in the agreed pre-flop range
<suspenders> "agreed"
<daven> so when do they disappear
<daven> 22-QQ/SCs/Broadways/Axs
<suspenders> disagree there
<daven> ok, i took silence as agreement
<suspenders> i mean I like that range were he on the button
<suspenders> I think it has to be tighter/stronger from the SB
<daven> hmm, i would if the bb wasn't dead money
<suspenders> I'd say that's a much better argument if he's the BB and fish is SB
<daven> true
<daven> ok, make it suited broadways
<suspenders> my main point is
<suspenders> no matter his range
<suspenders> when we bet the river it's clearly for value
<suspenders> but when you bet $13 on the river it's never as a bluff
<suspenders> so it's fairly easy to play perfectly against a $13 bet
<daven> i'm stuck on whether there is any value to be had now
<suspenders> 2-5 river
<daven> ja
<daven> ok,
<daven> JJ/QQ/99/JT/T9
<suspenders> 88=99
<daven> &88, yep
<suspenders> like if he has JJ
<suspenders> and you bet $13 on the river
<suspenders> you're repping a wider value-betting range than had you bet like $27
<suspenders> I think we can agree on that
<daven> which means i get more calls?
<suspenders> ?
<suspenders> why
<daven> cos villain isn't thinking about range so much, he's like, hmm, i gotta call
<daven> whereas vs $27, he's thinking uhoh i don't like 99 much anymore
<suspenders> you're never going to get anywhere in poker thinking like that
<suspenders> c
learly what your bet-size represents is huge here
<daven> yeah, and $13 reps weaker than $27 = he is calling the hands we get value against way more often
<suspenders> $13 does NOT REP WEAKER
* badgers has joined #flopturnriver
<daven> in his mind it does
<daven> badgers - a hand, assuming river 2-5, betsizing and why
<daven> http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...00.html#934793
<daven> also, villain is <daven> 29-22-3, 60% attempt to steal, 50% fold to 3-bet, 45% cbet, 0% fold to cbet (0/4), 120 hands
<oskar> (11:53:18 AM) dranger_libertyinsandiego: what do we think ^?
<badgers> the 2nd hand?
<oskar> like omg theres an eagale inside u
<suspenders> let's look at your "range" for betting $13 vs something in the upper 20s
<suspenders> gimme your range for betting $13
<daven> yep
<badgers> it's a pretty tough spot...
<badgers> basically the only T you get value from is JT
<suspenders> the hand with the river as is, is not a tough spot
<badgers> JJ+ probably 3bets preflop
<daven> ok, say 2-5 river
<badgers> ohhhh
<badgers> sorry :S
<daven> as played it's easy check behind
<daven> i think
<badgers> yeah I agree
<badgers> sorry too early in morning lol
<daven> so, river 4h
<daven> for example
<daven> we're debating bet sizing etc
<badgers> $24 minimum
<daven> and we gotta split his range into 3, right = calling range, folding range, cr shove range
<suspenders> I really doubt we're getting c/r'ed ever on the end
<daven> why? i'm lost here, you both agree, = i'm gonna learn something
<suspenders> dude
<daven> yeah, he's leading the river with his monsters most of the time
<suspenders> i've said it 20 times
<badgers> 99/88/jt/t8/t9
<suspenders> by betting small you reps hands you normally wouldn't be valuebetting
<suspenders> with a big size
<badgers> it looks more like air
<suspenders> ^^^^^^
<suspenders> and we've opened UTG+1
<suspenders> to Tx is not a part of our typical range
<daven> does it look more like air? is my question i guess
<suspenders> you're repping a hand like QQ by betting small, which is not what you want to represent against 88/99/JJ
<daven> like, assuming a typical villain here
<daven> he's more likely to bluff catch vs a big bet?
<badgers> it looks more like a full house/air given your EPopen
<badgers> he may fold slightly more frequently to a big bet
<suspenders> not likely to bluffcatch, but your range is crazy polarized
<suspenders> with a big bet
<badgers> but not enough to make up for the time that you win more by betting bigger
<daven> i dunno if i barrel AK here
<badgers> does he know that?
<suspenders> probably should barrel a lot here
<suspenders> EP open against his SB calling range
<daven> i probably don't 3-barrel air enough
<suspenders> seems like a pretty simple spot of our range is lolstronger than his
<daven> yeah, we agree on everything but sizing
<daven> and i'm starting to get it
<daven> he's calling JJ both sizes, same with JT/T9
<badgers> idk if I would barrel AK here, it's hard to get him to fold 88/99 when he picks up the gutshot and I think that's a decent part of his range
<daven> QQ on river?
<badgers> unless we plan on 3barrelling a lot but I would want more reads before I did that
<daven> play
<badgers> same thing
<badgers> $24
<badgers> min
<badgers> oh wait
<daven> even when our range suddenly became weaker against his?
<badgers> idk it depends if he's bad enough to call Tx here
<daven> cos there are twice as many Tx hands
<badgers> which he is apparently
<badgers> preflop I mean
<daven> 9T/TJ mostly, and AT, maybe Kts/QTs
<daven> TT
<daven> i check QQ behind, awful?
<badgers> no i think it's ok
<suspenders> if you check back QQ then you'll def want to bet big with Tx
<suspenders> I'd bet $27+ with Tx/boats/air and $9 with JJ-AA
<suspenders> this is on the low-card river
<daven> I'm going to post the low card version in FTR FR forum
<suspenders> lol
<badgers> I guess he pretty much never has air here
<daven> cos i definitely gained something from this
<badgers> so vbetting JJ is fine
<badgers> since he'll never turn a hand into a bluff
<badgers> and we're marginally ahead of his range
<suspenders> basically with JJ-AA on the river I'd bet w/e size I bet on the turn
<badgers> 79/78 also possible
<daven> 89 also then
<badgers> as is like A6/86/96
<badgers> some combos
<suspenders> nah
<suspenders> i mean flatting from the sb against EP open with those seems like a stretch
<badgers> 86s can definitely play this way
<suspenders> 78/89 work postflop, but should be discount PF a bit
<daven> 29-22
<badgers> I'm not really thinking offsuit
<daven> suited for sure
<suspenders> you'd get better advice in the SH forum
<suspenders> sowwy but it's true
<daven> but the mod would move the hand...
<suspenders> cuz this is a creative kind of spot
<suspenders> ya I'm not saying to do it
<suspenders> this is one of dem outside the box kinda thangs
<daven> ok, another one that's kinda similar
<daven> but completely different
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