discussion for Guide to Managing Non-Playing Issues

nh

original thread here:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...asc&highlight=

Nice thread -

I would like to re-iterate the point about Neteller - I was a complete moron and signed up for a £GBP neteller account, I've lost around $1k in conversion fees in the past 3 months!

Originally Posted by Jibalob

Nice thread -

I would like to re-iterate the point about Neteller - I was a complete moron and signed up for a £GBP neteller account, I've lost around $1k in conversion fees in the past 3 months!

Ask for a new one or close it and open a new one.

i dont know how strict they will be on this but i did it about 18months ago and only had problems with UB sending my br to the wrong account

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Originally Posted by Jibalob

Nice thread -

I would like to re-iterate the point about Neteller - I was a complete moron and signed up for a £GBP neteller account, I've lost around $1k in conversion fees in the past 3 months!

Ask for a new one or close it and open a new one.

i dont know how strict they will be on this but i did it about 18months ago and only had problems with UB sending my br to the wrong account

I would rather pay the fees than have to deal with Neteller's cutomer service again to be honest.

I don't think I would recommend getting PT+PAHUD or PO right now, with PT3 and Holdem Manager both due for launch very soon. I'd suggest keeping all the HH's and use the free RealTime HUD (it's supposedly better than PAHUD anyway, though I haven't gotten around to testing it myself).

I'd also suggest having a neteller account in USD and a moneybookers in EUR, or vice versa. You can use € accounts on Party, on some of the ipoker skins, and on the Boss network afaik.

Oh and btw, RB officially isn't allowed on ipoker anymore, though the FPP cashback system on lots of skins is pretty much the same thing.

Originally Posted by HalvSame

I don't think I would recommend getting PT+PAHUD or PO right now, with PT3 and Holdem Manager both due for launch very soon. I'd suggest keeping all the HH's and use the free RealTime HUD (it's supposedly better than PAHUD anyway, though I haven't gotten around to testing it myself).

I'd also suggest having a neteller account in USD and a moneybookers in EUR, or vice versa. You can use € accounts on Party, on some of the ipoker skins, and on the Boss network afaik.

Oh and btw, RB officially isn't allowed on ipoker anymore, though the FPP cashback system on lots of skins is pretty much the same thing.

Looks like we have two unmentionable's then

I think you need to get your E-Wallet and Bank in sync immediately. Storing your money in your E-Wallet is bad, you should only use your E-Wallet to transfer funds if you can. It's the same thing for keeping your entire bank roll on a skin, that skin is investing your bank roll into a sweep account and earning interest off of it while you're no wiser. They aren't delaying your withdraw request because of processing, they're delaying your withdraw request in order to accrue the interest and transfer the money back from their sweep account into your account. You need to find a way to earn interest on your bank roll, even if its just the interest from your bank, or find some way to move your money between your sweep account, your bank, your E-Wallet and your skin where your interest > rake.

It's not a huge mistake at micro levels, 1,000 dollars would earn 10 dollars a year at your bank etc., but when professional poker players tell me they keep 100,000 in cash in the casino lock box, it makes me want to vomit. I don't do short term investing and I'm not familiar with the rake from the E-Wallets, but I'm dead certain if you're not earning interest on your bank roll you're losing money. The returns may be too marginal to justify the hassle, but even still, just leaving your money in the hands of skins and E-Wallets is leaking $, and it could add up over time.

I agree mostly, though people like me who have bank accounts in a different currency have to consider crappy exchange rates/fees when transferring to/from our bank accounts as well (ie I think neteller charges 1.5%(?) extra on each transfer). There might also be a tiltfactor when the on-site balance gets low.

Keeping the above in mind, how many buyins do we generally want to keep on-site? I'm playing three sites and I'm thinking maybe keep 10 buyins on each site, a couple in neteller/mb for quick reloads to avoid the tilt issue, and keep the rest in the bank account at 5% or so (and putting some of it in index funds as the bank account grows).

Its a good point. My br is large in compariosn to my stakes, so i can have 20buy ins on 3 or more sites before it bothers me so perhaps just ahving money stored online isnt always good.
However, if you are looking for the best games, you will need somethinhg online to just jump into whatever site you need and want to play those good games on

I looked into this a little more over a conversation at the casino, this is going to be long and I'm going to spoon feed the conversation, but trust me it's worth thinking about.

I had a long discussion with a PLO8 pro about this, one of the reasons he concentrates on PLO8 instead of NL TH'EM is that the requirements for PLO8 bank rolls are a fraction of NL TH'EM bank rolls, so he can keep more cash in the bank to earn interest and prevent himself from tilting with a 20 buy in bank roll at any time. The games and the number of buy ins in the bank roll aside, it makes a lot more sense to me now, because as long as you have the $ to operate at the limits and the # of tables you want/need to, why leave any money sitting around to do something stupid and/or nothing with as opposed to making it work for you? If you're going to bed, taking a day, a weekend or even a week off, why are you leaving your money on the skin or the E-Wallet?

My friend is an accounting lawyer by day, and she was showing me the legal accounting software from Thompson Elite called Pro Law. Pro Law has an automated feature, where at the end of the business day or on the weekend, the software would move all of the $ in the operating account into a short term interest account, earn interest, and then return the $ and the interest - rake on the interest into the operating account for the next business day or week. This is called sweeping, and the short term interest account is called a sweep account.

The important thing here is that the short term interest account isn't just a bank account, but an agreement between the business' operating account and the bank. When you're keeping your money in the bank, you have your money on hand at all times. Why do you need your money on hand when you "sleep?" The answer is that you don't need to. So instead of making the bank keep the money on hand, you tell the bank to put the money into a short term interest account, the bank gets a higher return on the $ since it doesn't have to keep the $ on hand, and then the bank takes it's rake off of the interest and then returns the $ plus the raked interest into your operating account in the morning or the next business week, when you "wake up."

There's no rake on the $ between the skin, the bank and the short term interest account, so as long as you aren't being raked by the E-Wallet every time you transfer funds, and even then it's a question of whether or not interest on $ > rake on $, you're losing money by not investing your money while you "sleep."

If you're keeping your money on your skin or E-Wallet, you're keeping it in an operating account that doesn't accrue any interest, and if you're just moving you're money from your skin or E-Wallet to your bank while you "sleep," you aren't earning as much interest as you could be.

I don't know how far you should take this, because for some of us its a diminimus return, but it's an important consideration as your bank roll gets bigger. She told me that a law firm that sweeps a million dollars a month makes an additional 10k more/less at the end of the month, and if you think of that money as accruing and compounding itself over time, that's a lot of additional income. The thing is, the firm can't even sweep all of its operating account into the sweep account, by law, but you can because you have no liability to your distributers, employees, customers etc.

So depending on the time between transferring funds and on the rake, you have to re-evaluate how you're using your bank roll. For me, there's no time in between depositing $ from my bank account into my skin, so it's senseless for me to have more $ on then the skin than I need for operating at the limit and the # tables I want. The rest of the bank roll is a "safety net" for variance, but it's also a second source of income we aren't earning if it's not on a table or in a bank. It's a third source of income we aren't earning if we aren't sweeping it at the end of the day.

As an example, if I'm operating at .10/.25 NL, I need 25 $ for the buy in on each table, and if I'm 9 tabling, then I'm going to need 225$ total. This is the "Operating Bank Roll," which is 9/10 of the total bank roll. It isn't perfect tho', because we need to "fill up" on a real time basis, so lets assign 100$ to the "Secondary Operating Bank Roll" and combine it with the "Operating Bank Roll" so we don't have to pull out our debit card every second of the day. I don't know how big you're "Secondary Operating Bank Roll" should actually be, you need to determine that for yourself. So, that means in order to operate all I need is 13/20 of my bank roll at any given time. The rest of my bank roll, the "Interest Accruing Bank Roll" should be in the bank account when I'm playing to accrue interest and be on hand in case the impossible happens. When I go to bed, I should transfer the portion of the bank roll that's in the bank account into a sweep account, "The Secondary Interest Accruing Bank Roll." If I don't plan on playing for more than a day, or for however long it takes for you to withdraw money from the skin, then the bank roll in the bank account should be swept for the entire duration. If I don't plan on playing for an amount of time longer than the amount of time it takes to withdraw my bank roll from the skin, then I need to withdraw the bankroll on the skin, combine it with the bank roll in the bank, and then take the combined bank roll in the bank and sweep it until I come back, "The Super Interest Accruing Bank Roll."

Basically, you should be making your bank roll work for you at all times. Since a lot of your bank roll is just there for variance, it's essentially "dead money" if that's all it's there for. Never keep more $ on a skin than you need to operate at the limit # tables you want + an additional amount to refill if you're playing ring games or no additional amount if you're playing tournaments and SNGs. Keep the rest of the bank roll in a bank account in order to accrue interest and cover for variance, and when you're not using it to cover variance, put it in a sweep account. You may not even need to keep all of your non-operating account money in your bank either, you could probably keep half in your bank and the other half in a sweep account at all times depending on the real time demand for cash.

Breaking it down, $ for Limits and # of Tables + some margin for refills, and then some margin of you're non operating bank roll in your bank followed by some margin of your non-operating bank roll in your sweep account while you play. All non-operating bank rolls in your sweep account when you aren't playing, and all bank roll in your sweep account when you take an amount of time off greater than the amount of time it takes to withdraw the operating account from the skin.

You're seriously going to have to judge for yourself how diminimus this is by accounting for E-Wallet rake, interest on the bank account, setting up a sweep account, the interest on the sweep account, the man hours/opportunity costs and the paper work, but it's a possible avenue for generating additional revenue for any one. If you don't earn interest off your bank roll, some one else will, and that's the bottom line.

I don't have enough $ to be concerned about this at the moment, so this is going to the back of my mind for now, but when I do have enough $, I'm going to incorporate myself and open a sweep account. (Speaking of which, incorporating yourself is also another potential source of revenue and a tax shelter that I haven't heard poker players discussing at all. Even prostitutes in Nevada incorporate themselves before they sub-contract to a brothel in order to write off travel, room, board and accessories, so I think they're definitely onto something we aren't. Considering the two professions are similar, at least in the sense of being "speak easy" cash businesses and part time jobs, it's worth looking into. You could possibly prevent your poker earnings from pushing you into a higher tax bracket if you're incorporated and have a real job, because the corporation files a separate tax return and gets even more tax advantages than some one with a real job. )

If you managed to suffer thru' that, LMK what you think. I'm no expert on liquid money management or incorporating, but considering both of them seem like relevant points of discussion, I think some one with more time than me (yeah, I know) or interested in compiling useful information should give these things some consideration and look into them in detail. If I get any pointers from any one who knows what they're talking about from the business end, I'll be sure to pass them along.

nh miffed. This is pure gold for beginners. I wish someone would have taken the time to put something like this 2 years ago because i would have alot more $$$ by now.

Great stuff miffed!!!!!

Originally Posted by breathweapon

It's not a huge mistake at micro levels, 1,000 dollars would earn 10 dollars a year at your bank etc., .

Get an online savings account at like Immigrant Direct and it's more like $55 a year off of the thousand. You can withdraw and deposit as much as you want when you want, takes 7 business days, then another 7 business days for your e-wallet, but if you are managing your bankroll properly then that shouldn't be much of an issue.

I have $300 on Stars right now- it is the first and only place I play on, and I didn't get a bonus when I signed up. Does anyone recommend transferring money to other skins so I can clear some bonuses?

And if so, should I do it by opening an ePassport account?What is the normal method of transportation of monies?

If someone transfered $200 or whatever to me on FullTilt or somewhere and I haven't deposited anything there, does that money go towards a bonus, or do I have to deposit from somewhere not on the site itself?

Originally Posted by Zee Devee

I have $300 on Stars right now- it is the first and only place I play on, and I didn't get a bonus when I signed up. Does anyone recommend transferring money to other skins so I can clear some bonuses?

And if so, should I do it by opening an ePassport account?What is the normal method of transportation of monies?

If someone transfered $200 or whatever to me on FullTilt or somewhere and I haven't deposited anything there, does that money go towards a bonus, or do I have to deposit from somewhere not on the site itself?

you need to deposit to get a bonus so you need some sort of e-wallet set up.
If you arent playing for a bonus i suggest you move to a skin of Ultimate bet where you might not earn much bonus, but youll get some none-the-less which is better than nothing.

Very nice work miffed. Thanks for the guide!

One question - has anything changed since you wrote the original post?

Right now I am about 60% of the way through clearing my initial bonus on Stars. I expect to finish it off sometime in July (I'm playing 5NL), and if this is all still current I will then start moving some $$$ to some UB skins - Bet21.com, DevilfishPoker, Benefit Poker, GreenTiePoker, etc - to get their bonuses.

Also, as there is apparently no RB on the iPoker network any more, would you now look at their bonuses before the UB skins?

Thanks!

I don't know if the UB skins are different, but the bonus on UB itself is a VERY slow bonus to clear at the microstakes.

I gave up on the rest of that bonus within a week or two of them switching to their current program.