Categorizing Players

OK, so in a thread the other day, somebody said something about categorizing players, TAG, loose/passive etc etc.

Whilst I did this already, I was wondering if I do it "efficiently" enough so to speak. I have been labeling fish green, TAG yellow, etc etc. I just wondered how people would tag villains with stats ( pre flop ) such as;

24/10
32/18
25/18

???

Also, is someone is passive pre-flop and aggressive post flop what would be the best way to label them?

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

Whilst I did this already, I was wondering if I do it "efficiently"...

so what's ur process right now?

e.g do you look at the VPIP:PFR Ratio? The bigger the "gap" between the two, the fishier the player.

So your 24/10 guy is only raising 10 out of the 24 hands he plays (per 100) and so is open limping or calling with the other 14. As a %age, he's only raising with 41% of the hands he opens.

Whereas your 25/18 guy is more like 72%. Which is getting closer to your LAG characteristic

PostFlop, a Fish with a low Fold-to-cBet stat tells you that this guy is a Station; a high one tells you he plays fit-or-fold

A player with a high Flop cBet stat coupled with a low Turn Aggro stat is going to be playing one-and-done postflop, so you can Float this guy HU & IP with a good expectation of robbing him when he checks the Turn.

CAVEAT: postflops stats need a much bigger sample size before they become accurate/reliable.

I usually label players with VPIP > 40 as 'fish' (though I might sometimes include a 35/0 and not include a 45/35).
I also label players with VPIP > 60 as 'whale'.
I see no reason to label any of the three example players as anything.

Originally Posted by DoubleJ

e.g do you look at the VPIP:PFR Ratio? The bigger the "gap" between the two, the fishier the player.

meh. So a 90/90 is not a fish?

Originally Posted by DoubleJ

So your 24/10 guy is only raising 10 out of the 24 hands he plays (per 100) and so is open limping or calling with the other 14. As a %age, he's only raising with 41% of the hands he opens.

... is open limping, limping behind or flatting raises with the other 14.

A decent starting point is the built in "auto-rate" categories of HEM. Not sure if Poker Tracker has similar functionality. See the two links below to see the default criterias for the default HEM auto-rate categories:
FAQ - Hold'em Manager Poker Tracking Software :: Auto Rate Introduction
FAQ - Hold'em Manager Poker Tracking Software :: Editing & Adding Auto Rate Rules

edit: yes there is a similar functionality in PT. Just Google poker tracker autorate.

@daviddem - lol! thx for those corrections!

Originally Posted by DoubleJ

so what's ur process right now?

e.g do you look at the VPIP:PFR Ratio? The bigger the "gap" between the two, the fishier the player.

So your 24/10 guy is only raising 10 out of the 24 hands he plays (per 100) and so is open limping or calling with the other 14. As a %age, he's only raising with 41% of the hands he opens.

Whereas your 25/18 guy is more like 72%. Which is getting closer to your LAG characteristic

PostFlop, a Fish with a low Fold-to-cBet stat tells you that this guy is a Station; a high one tells you he plays fit-or-fold

A player with a high Flop cBet stat coupled with a low Turn Aggro stat is going to be playing one-and-done postflop, so you can Float this guy HU & IP with a good expectation of robbing him when he checks the Turn.

CAVEAT: postflops stats need a much bigger sample size before they become accurate/reliable.

As you said, you need a lot more info post-flop so yeah I am going on VPIP atm. Here is how I have been doing it;

VPIP < 18 - Tight
VPIP ~ 24 - Reg
VPIP > 30 - Loose

Obviously that's just a starting point. Then depending on their PFR I would add the agg/passive line. So;

VPIP < 18 PFR < 18 - TAG. This would be Yellow
VPIP < 18 PFR < 8 - TP. This would be Light Blue
VPIP > 30 PFR > 30 - LAG. This would be Dark Blue
VPIP > 30 PFR < 12 - LP. This would be purple.

This is only based on pre-flop only. I consider people between 22-26 VPIP & PFR as Regs and will label them Red. However, the problem I am coming up against is when villains have stats such as 24/16, I am not sure how to label them as a quick way to identify them like the others. Would I need maybe two extra colours for Reg passive/Reg Agg...this doesn't make sense to me though as I wouldn't expect a reg to have such a big gap in their VPIP/PFR.

Hope that makes things a little clearer? If I am going about this the wrong way then please let me know.

I don't understand why people feel the need to label fish. First of all, they rarely stick around for very long so the effort you put into labeling them is usually wasted beyond your current session, and you can just look at their VPIP/PFR to know they're a fish anyway. Same thing with taking notes on fish like "limped pre with J8s and c/c 3 streets on T8xxxx". I fully expect fish to do this so it's not noteworthy, save your notes for regs or fish taking lines that you wouldn't expect.

Categorizing regs is more worth your time imo, but you want to use information you can't get from just glancing at stats. If a reg turns into a calling station vs you postflop, if and how they defend their blinds vs you, if they bluff in bad spots, stack off pre light etc.

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

VPIP < 18 PFR < 18 - TAG. This would be Yellow
VPIP < 18 PFR < 8 - TP. This would be Light Blue
VPIP > 30 PFR > 30 - LAG. This would be Dark Blue
VPIP > 30 PFR < 12 - LP. This would be purple.

If your color system is just duplicating the work of your HUD, then it's only value is in saving you that fraction of a second it takes you to look at 2 numbers on your HUD. Why bother?

Originally Posted by d0zer

Why bother?

coz the tags show up in the lobby, and so help with table selection for future sessions

or are we talking at x-purposes here?

Originally Posted by DoubleJ

coz the tags show up in the lobby, and so help with table selection for future sessions

or are we talking at x-purposes here?

That's exactly why I am doing it. Helps me select my tables much, much quicker.

I like to use purple to list people who will play any two suited cards to try and suck out a flush regardless of correct odds.

+1 that is also why I color code.

By the way, it would be about time that Pokerstars start showing exactly which seat is available at the table straight from the lobby. This has been available on both FTP and PP for a long time now.

Cobra, you're over thinking things. You're playing 2nl. Don't try and label everyone. For fr use something like tag/nit (ie vpip 14 or lower, pfr is irrelevant), lag (vpip 20+, pfr 15+), loose/passive (vpip 17+ pfr 6 or less), maniac (vpip 35+ pfr 25+) and fish (anything spazzy that you can take money from without trying).

That will cover most players. Anything else either classify as above if its near enough and other things make you feel they belong or don't label and you know to keep your eyes on them as they play a more unusual style. The label is nothing more than a rough guide to help you think.

ie I have dude labeled as a nit and he's raising my river bet on a paired board when I have a straight. Or dude is labeled lag and he has double barreled my tptk so I feel comfortable calling and hoping he leads the river. Or w/e really. I find the colour coding can help me avoid a silly call/raise or remind me to value bet a wider range.

But remember it isn't telling you how to play each hand, its just to help you think and make decisions easier.

Also the stats I just gave are an example. Use any you like as long as you know what they mean.

Also also, everything daven said

Originally Posted by daviddem

By the way, it would be about time that Pokerstars start showing exactly which seat is available at the table straight from the lobby. This has been available on both FTP and PP for a long time now.

i think they have a table preview in beta right now; Pascal posted some screens shots recently but i can't find the post, so mebbe ping him....

I briefly skimmed this thread, but I have a suggestion.

A lot of people will color-code VPIP (as an example) based on the value of the VPIP. I suggest color-coding it based on something else, like how often they open limp.

I've posted threads about how to do this in PT3 before, and the process shouldn't be much different in other database programs.

Originally Posted by DoubleJ

coz the tags show up in the lobby, and so help with table selection for future sessions

I believe this is only valuable at midstakes+ where the fish pool is considerably more limited. low-microstakes you can just sort your lobby by potsize/vpip and find juicy tables, not to mention the player pool is so big that manually labeling random fish has less efficacy.

But far be it from me to shit on your color parade. I suppose it means you're at least paying attention to the session and engaging your brain instead of auto-piloting so that's good.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

I've posted threads about how to do this in PT3 before...

he means here, kids:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es-173461.html

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

...the process shouldn't be much different in other database programs.

AFAIK, you can't do this kinda thing with the HM2 HUD (presumably coz they want you to buy NoteCaddy). Closest u could get would be some Auto-Rate rules