Best way to deal with short stackers?

Clearly I need some help in the above issue. I would give an educated estimate that around 60-70% of my losses over the last 3 weeks have been to short stacking shovespewers. It seems like I am either 3bet as a shove and fold my marginal hand to the short stacker with a tight VPIP. Or I stack off with a good-decent hand against the loose VPIP short stacker and either end up being drawn out on in a flip or just not hitting any of my outs vs tiny PP. I'm kind of at a loss since I can't out aggro a shovetard and sure... losing 40% of a buy in isn't that bad but when it happens like 15 times in a session it starts to take a tole.

How do other people handle the SS micro scrubs?

The short answer is you beat short stackers just like you beat any opponent: put them on a range, calculate your equity, and bet, raise, fold, check, and call accordingly to maximize your EV.

They sometimes pose problems if you guess wrong or the coinflip goes against you or you hit the top of their range, but the thing about shortstackers is that 95% plus of them, I believe, are largely bad players. They are usually players who don't want to think about playing poker. THey want to have a SYSTEM to play poker and poker is not a systematic game. The best moves often DEPEND, but not for shorstackers. if you're paying attention, you should know their range for pushing what when and then it's just a matter of determining your best play.

MDK... What I do Is hunt them down. Enter every tourney or sit n go they enter and push over the top every time they raise. Eventually I go broke, but on the rare Occasion I push over the top with 7 2 and they have aces and I win>>> MUAHAHAHHAHAH...

Its a great feeling

Or I insta enter some of those super turbo heads ups... Those are very good for ending a BR or getting some insta satisfaction

Short stackers are a thorn in the side.

I think some of them multitable and wait for AI with AA,KK. nits.The tight VPIPs, easily spotted.Treat them like the other nits.

Ive discovered the shorties are all sorts of players, good and bad.

Get reads on them, youll know how to deal with them after youve seen some of their showdowns.

Your losing money to them ? Tighten up, and get old fashioned reads.

The low to mid stakes are filled with shorties so eventually you're going to have to gamble with them. Put them on a range and act accordingly. Sometimes you will run bad against them but in the long-term you should be killing them. The question is, are you running bad against short stacks? Or are you making -EV decisions?

Post some hands

i usually find short stackers are free money at micros? maybe youre just running bad. just dont steal there blinds and then call their allins with Q7 or make stubborn 3bet calls and it shud be fine

Originally Posted by JKDS

Post some hands

Well I'm currently a shortstacker at 50nl 6max. I'd have to agree that most SS regs are horrible players, but really no worse than any other regs I encounter.

As has been said, don't steal too light if they're 3bet shove happy, or steal often if they are really tight. Shove over if they steal light and fold to shoves with hands lacking in the nec. equity to call, obv. Acknowledge that they are essentially playing a different game than you are. Other than that, it's super villain dependent and not really that difficult a strategy to counteract. Just understand that you're constantly going to get into flips and 70/30s preflop which is, in certain ways, appears high variance.

Do yourself a favor and PokerStove some typical shoving ranges and find the range of hands you can call with and junk.

Originally Posted by eragotte

i usually find short stackers are free money at micros? maybe youre just running bad. just dont steal there blinds and then call their allins with Q7 or make stubborn 3bet calls and it shud be fine

Yeah I just run effing horribad vs them. I'm about 1 for 10 tonight when I get them in while ahead. Just had a stretch where on 3 of my 4 tables I was vs. a SS. Lost QQ vs 1010, then TPTK to a FD, then AK vs AQ. Bye bye profit for the night. In all cases I got my money in with the knowledge that they were spewy 45/6 type players. Shrug....

I hate short stackers because they make the game stupid, instead of being strategically interesting to play. I am not learning to play poker to take coin flips preflop. I hope Full Tilt and others take measures such as increasing the min stack a player can have at a table.

There are superb articles on how to crush shortstackers here, under 4.13 and 4.14: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78...ncement37.html

Just treat them as any other player. If you have a hud use it to your advantage just like you do anybody else, see how many hands they are playing, calculate a range, and make your moves accordingly. Playing against short stacks is pretty much the same as a regular stack, only you cant win as much money when you beat them, but when you lose you dont lose as much

I dont think you can play your normal game against them. You have to adjust a little. One of the ways I adjust is I do not set mine or call with weak hands to small stacks bc I expect no mattter what the flop its going all in. And I can fold my junk hand when I catcha small piece to those guys for some reason.

I'd agree with much of the above and really the best advice is to "look at hud, put em on a range and adjust accordingly.

More specifically, here's one deeper thought: Personally, I hate sitting with them on my left especially if they're aggro. Be aware that if you're in the btn or co with an aggro short stacker in the blinds, it's not always a good idea to blind steal. Making a small raise only to have them shove behind you is a losing battle. But it works both ways. If I've got a smaller stack on my left who waits for AK+, JJ+ and is like an 8/2 then you can blind steal knowing that if he does push back (I said if, not when) you can happily fold knowing he's got you beat.

But yeah, I usually like having them on my right so that I know what they're doing before I make my pf decision to steal/play marginal hands/etc. Not saying this is how you should play poker, just a strategy that seems to work for me.

I playshort and full stacked
there is nothing wrong with SS you know their preflop range.
AT,AJ,AQ,AK,KQ and pocket pairs.They will raise that hands preflop.
I think that you are raising that hands too or you like to be beaten by BB who holds 23

If I can impart a little wisdom as a limit player, the thing that controls variance in no limit as opposed to limit is your ability to force players out of pot. Limit players have very little fold equity, and hence we see a lot of showdowns and that gives players who were behind at the flop a chance to draw out. You guys are able to price the draws to force players to fold (or make bad calls which pay off for you long term).

Playing shortstackers in NL is going to be a lot more like limit in terms of variance-- because they are basically shoving the hands they like and don't have to put much into the pot to be pot committed, you are much more at the mercy of the cards as you can't force them out of hands.

So I'd follow the advice of the other commenters but also be aware that you could have very high variance-- you could be doing everything right and still lose money in the short term.

Originally Posted by ljove

I playshort

die in a fire.

Thanks for the advice guys. I guess I was just really frustrated about losing over 70% of my flips vs them recently. Like the article says SS is high variance.

I mostly avoid them if they raise 1st unless I have 10-10+, A-K then I put them all in.
I also steal relentlessly because they all play too tight.

I wish this thread had never started.

Before this thread , I used swat shorties , never had a problem with them, like they were flies, one sweep , BAM , gone.

when this thread started,I started to think about how I beat them, I started to notice them, now , there everywhere and they are running rings round me.

HOW TO delete this thread ?

Originally Posted by Illfavor

Well I'm currently a shortstacker at 50nl 6max. I'd have to agree that most SS regs are horrible players, but really no worse than any other regs I encounter.

As has been said, don't steal too light if they're 3bet shove happy, or steal often if they are really tight. Shove over if they steal light and fold to shoves with hands lacking in the nec. equity to call, obv. Acknowledge that they are essentially playing a different game than you are. Other than that, it's super villain dependent and not really that difficult a strategy to counteract. Just understand that you're constantly going to get into flips and 70/30s preflop which is, in certain ways, appears high variance.

Do yourself a favor and PokerStove some typical shoving ranges and find the range of hands you can call with and junk.

wait wat? level?

also op just play 50bb min tables.

I have 6 days to clear a really large bonus :/

Originally Posted by Illfavor

I have 6 minutes to clear a really large boner :/

fyp

This thread FAILS.

Why? Because lots of folks are obviously struggling with this, but none of the more successful posters are forcing the strugglers to THINK (though suggesting they put folks on a range/work with poker stove is a not-too-horrible idea).

DAMMIT if you've posted ITT about having ANY trouble with short stackers, THINK about these questions. And post your answers below. You've gotta learn to analyze these situations properly and adjust. Shorties require just about the simplest strategic adjustment possible. If you can't/don't/won't put the effort into problem-solving this for yourself, you won't improve as a player enough to beat this game. So get to work on these:

1. What strategic feature of playing short stacked makes it effective?

2. How can Hero counter that effectiveness and even exploit it as a weakness?

3. What method(s) of game play and table management will allow Hero to counter most often?

Let me know...

I've had a few problems with short stackers. Here are my thoughts...

1. What strategic feature of playing short stacked makes it effective?
The most common behaviour I've seen is a player going all-in, frequently with debatable cards. They manage to steal a fair few blinds and sometimes randomly hit a straight/flush with mediocre cards. More often though, they lose it all when faced with a solid TAG player.

2. How can Hero counter that effectiveness and even exploit it as a weakness?
By playing more tightly and looking after your stack. It's tempting sometimes to simply call them, but restraint and sticking to what you know is what I've found works best. Play only cards you're confident in and get as many reads on them as possible. My only experience is at the micros however - I can't speak for higher stakes.

3. What method(s) of game play and table management will allow Hero to counter most often?
Position. Am I right in thinking the most advantageous place is to be sitting to the right of those short stackers?

Originally Posted by Shifter

I've had a few problems with short stackers. Here are my thoughts...

1. What strategic feature of playing short stacked makes it effective?
The most common behaviour I've seen is a player going all-in, frequently with debatable cards. They manage to steal a fair few blinds and sometimes randomly hit a straight/flush with mediocre cards. More often though, they lose it all when faced with a solid TAG player.

2. How can Hero counter that effectiveness and even exploit it as a weakness?
By playing more tightly and looking after your stack. It's tempting sometimes to simply call them, but restraint and sticking to what you know is what I've found works best. Play only cards you're confident in and get as many reads on them as possible. My only experience is at the micros however - I can't speak for higher stakes.

3. What method(s) of game play and table management will allow Hero to counter most often?
Position. Am I right in thinking the most advantageous place is to be sitting to the right of those short stackers?

1. This is an outcome, not a strategic feature. Decent SS-rs play very specific combos in ways that force YOU to play "debatable" cards.

2. Yes, you should refuse to play certain types of hands. But which type? And why?

3. This is part of it, but why?

Originally Posted by Robb

1. This is an outcome, not a strategic feature. Decent SS-rs play very specific combos in ways that force YOU to play "debatable" cards.

2. Yes, you should refuse to play certain types of hands. But which type? And why?

3. This is part of it, but why?

1. Would you mind giving an example of such combos?

2. I would say gapped connectors, low/mid suited connectors (particularly if OOP) and, depending on position, low/mid pocket pairs. The reason being that the odds of hitting a straight or a set on the flop are lower than the villain hitting a higher pair and going all-in. I would think that a short stacker would be more inclined to shove if they flop a flush draw, also.

3. You'll have more of an indication of what they're holding. I know there must be more to it than that, but I'm struggling to think of why...

Originally Posted by Robb

Let me know...

1. What strategic feature of playing short stacked makes it effective?

I hope to answer this correctly.

The advantage the shorties have is you cant get good implied odds against them.


2. How can Hero counter that effectiveness and even exploit it as a weakness?

Buy in full stacked , use position , 3bet them when you have their ranges in your sights and you are ahead.

3. What method(s) of game play and table management will allow Hero to counter most often?

Table selection involves looking at everything to do with the table, Stacksizes , and where to sit relative to stacksizes,having notes on the players.

Originally Posted by oskar

, I still refuse to play with more than one shortstacker because it screws with the whole game dynamic.

Shorties make up allsorts of players, good , bad , beginners , ultra tight/loose . each have to be adjusted to individually. Have reads on them.

Originally Posted by celtic123

Originally Posted by Robb

Let me know...

1. What strategic feature of playing short stacked makes it effective?

I hope to answer this correctly.

The advantage the shorties have is you cant get any implied odds against them.

fyp - but, yes, you got it right.

Originally Posted by celtic123

2. How can Hero counter that effectiveness and even exploit it as a weakness?

Buy in full stacked , use position , 3bet them when you have their ranges in your sights and you are ahead.

Almost. What are you using position to accomplish? We all have standard preflop ranges (hopefully adjusted for position) for open-raises, flat calls, 3b's, folds. What types of hands shift around into different ranges when the shortie is left to act? What types of hands shift around when you're acting after the shortie? And why?

Originally Posted by celtic123

3. What method(s) of game play and table management will allow Hero to counter most often?

Table selection involves looking at everything to do with the table, Stacksizes , and where to sit relative to stacksizes,having notes on the players.

Where do you want the good shortie sitting? Can you have a bad shortie immediately to your left and profit? When should you leave a table because of one or more shorties? And how should you make the decision about leaving or staying? What 1 or 2 factors are most important?

Thanks for your reply , ill comtemplate my answers and reply when im confident with my answers.

Let me post a hand that I Played against a shortie about 15 minutes ago , Ill make it external , so as not to cloud this thread up.

http://weaktight.com/1864748

I'll have a go:

1. Already answered: you do not have implied odds against them. I would also say that part of the positional advantage is denied (because once all-in, position does not matter anymore).

2. You don't play speculative hands against them that need implied odds to be profitable (small SC's, Axs, etc). Rather, you play hands that dominate their range, meaning hands that have a positive all in EV against their range. All-in domination is what you want. I am also not so sure, but if they are the kind who play two streets, you could possibly consider playing dominated, but robust hands, such as 9Ts and stack them on a favorable flop when they can't get away from their hand.

3. You want position on the good shorties, same as you want position on any good player. But of course, given the choice between a good shortie having position on me or a good full stacked player having position on me, I will always go for the shortie having position on me. You can profit by having the bad shorties on your left because they will play their cards badly against your range, and also I would say because position matters less against shorties (especially the bad ones) than against full stacked players. You also profit by loosing potentially less to the short stack who has position on you than you could loose to a full stack with position on you. Basically, this is the application of the "money flows clockwise" principle. In practice, what I am doing when I get to a new table with unknown players at the micros is start with the assumption that the short stacks are the bad players and that the full stacks are the better players. I try to have two big stacks to my right and two short stacks to my left.

Feel free to flame if I botched this up.

Originally Posted by celtic123

Originally Posted by Robb

Let me know...

1. What strategic feature of playing short stacked makes it effective?

I hope to answer this correctly.

The advantage the shorties have is you cant get good implied odds against them.




2. How can Hero counter that effectiveness and even exploit it as a weakness?

Buy in full stacked , use position , 3bet them when you have their ranges in your sights and you are ahead.

3. What method(s) of game play and table management will allow Hero to counter most often?

Table selection involves looking at everything to do with the table, Stacksizes , and where to sit relative to stacksizes,having notes on the players.

Originally Posted by oskar

, I still refuse to play with more than one shortstacker because it screws with the whole game dynamic.

Shorties make up allsorts of players, good , bad , beginners , ultra tight/loose . each have to be adjusted to individually. Have reads on them.

You forgot one people play extra retarded versus ss players. The other night i play a few rounds of 50nl ans brought in for 20xbb each round. People would cold call my open shoves with hands like 67 off

Originally Posted by littleogre

You forgot one people play extra retarded versus ss players. The other night i play a few rounds of 50nl ans brought in for 20xbb each round. People would cold call my open shoves with hands like 67 off

So how could a full stacked Hero take advantage of this?

Originally Posted by celtic123

Thanks for your reply , ill comtemplate my answers and reply when im confident with my answers.

Let me post a hand that I Played against a shortie about 15 minutes ago , Ill make it external , so as not to cloud this thread up.

http://weaktight.com/1864748

Fun hand, but he's retard who only happens to have short stack. Not an authentic short stacker playing a decent strategy.

But gj stacking him.

Buying in full stacked is never a "counter" to an effective SS strategy.

Originally Posted by Illfavor

Buying in full stacked is never a "counter" to an effective SS strategy.

^^

One key idea is still missing from this thread:

Having a medium-decent SS on your left sucks, cuz he plays lots of 3b shoves over preflop raises, and you DON'T usually have quite enough pots odds to call. (and NO implied odds either, obv.)

Well, turn it around. What if he's on your right? Then when he opens in the CO, Hero can 3bet "shove" on him, i.e. 3bet to 20BB which covers his stack. This turns the strategy on its head. Now the SHORTIE doesn't have any implied odds, and the pots odds aren't quite enough for HIM to call w/ the majority of his range.

What kinds of hands can we 3bet "shove" against him? Can we do it from the BTN? the blinds?

So how could a full stacked Hero take advantage of this?

The caller makes two mistakes: first by calling light and second by not raising. Hero can squeeze and 3-bet with a range wider than he would play against the short stack alone. Why? Because fold equity against the cold caller is significant, so potentially adding dead money to the pot and so massively improving the pot odds. Since pot odds are better, Hero can 3-bet with a wider range than he could play against the short stacker alone.

Originally Posted by eragotte

i usually find short stackers are free money at micros? maybe youre just running bad. just dont steal there blinds and then call their allins with Q7 or make stubborn 3bet calls and it shud be fine

i am more interested in pictures of your avatar to be honest


like littleogre said, play hands that are likely to dominate what they have: JJ+, AJ+. if they're low and desperate they are likely to go in on t he first A (or high K) they get so unless you get real unlucky you won't be facing down rockets

i'm a little late to the game, so i hope i'm not repeating anyone else's advice.

a SS'er is disadvantaged in so many ways, and they really only have one advantage from a theoretical standpoint: fold equity. but here's a little known fact: did you know that when you're playing against a SS'ed opponent, you are also effectively short stacked? i mean, duhhhh, right? but this means that you have all the advantages that they do.

of course, this leads to another advantage for them, in that you're playing a style that they're more accustomed to (but they all suck at yours and mine limits anyway, so this shouldn't really be an advantage either). so play their game:

1) very seldom call with money left behind PF or post flop, unless you're floating or you already have a decent hand and you think that you'll extract more value by letting him bluff into you (in other words, if you intend on stacking off but think that shoving will fold too much of his range).

this also means don't put yourself in a spot where you're forced to crying call if they shove. keep yourself in the initiative, so that you not only have the equity advantage, but the FOLD EQUITY advantage. if you're continually b/f JTs on a K72r flop against SS'ers, then you suck at poker

2) fold far less often than you ever thought you should. usually any pair on the flop is good enough to call a c/shove or donk shove (of course considering reads and ranges and board texture and so forth). AJo on a 852r board usually has enough equity in these spots against 20bb players as well. most pairs PF, and AQ+ are pretty much always good enough to call with. THESE ARE JUST EXAMPLES, NOT GUIDELINES. i'm just demonstrating that a SS'ers biggest advantage is fold equity, so why would you maximize their expectation by waiting for TP+?

3) INDUCE FOR VALUE; GIVE NO WIGGLE ROOM FOR BLUFFS: bad/loose SS'er limps UTG and you iso to 5bbs w 88, it folds to him and he calls. flop comes K72r, the pot is 11.5bbs, he has 15bbs left behind. if you bet 2/3 PSB (7bb's) he will have exactly 2x's your bet left behind. he will shove with a hudge range, and you can safely call.

same scenario, except you hold JTs. why would you willing put yourself in a spot where he's going to c/shove with a huge range? if you instead just shove, you will actually show some FE.

4) bluff shove a lot. they piss you off so much by constantly shoving and raising tiny amounts that you still can't call for implied odds and so on and so forth. well your stack size is effectively the same size against this player, so why the f don't you punish them the same way?

CONCLUSION: it comes down to ranges and reads and all the same stuff it always comes down to, so you should post hands to get a real answer rather than just a 4-point, generic, oft-wrong plan. this post was just to let you know that you have to take advantage of your strengths against a SS'er and minimize THEIR strengths, and to get you thinking like a SS'er for a little bit, so that you may begin your journey to pwning them

Originally Posted by Robb

Originally Posted by littleogre

You forgot one people play extra retarded versus ss players. The other night i play a few rounds of 50nl ans brought in for 20xbb each round. People would cold call my open shoves with hands like 67 off

So how could a full stacked Hero take advantage of this?

Well perhaps i'm misunderstanding your question. Sure it would be better to be full stacked and have people call your shoves with crap hands. I'm just not sure that they will. My point is people open there calling range way to much versus a SS player. Why do you think Shorties can sit back and only play big hands and eek out a profit.

Not saying short stacking is better then playing full because it isn't. I'm saying people play worse versus SS players. Perhaps this is because SS players are irratating and they just wanna get rid of them.

Originally Posted by littleogre

[ Why do you think Shorties can sit back and only play big hands and eek out a profit.

I thought SS who play too tight just waiting for big hands don't make a profit as they are missing the main benefit of being a shortie ie using their fold equity.

(BTW, I didn't read this thread, just the 2+2 thread linked to earlier)

Originally Posted by DanAronG

Originally Posted by littleogre

[ Why do you think Shorties can sit back and only play big hands and eek out a profit.

I thought SS who play too tight just waiting for big hands don't make a profit as they are missing the main benefit of being a shortie ie using their fold equity.

(BTW, I didn't read this thread, just the 2+2 thread linked to earlier)

Well being a nit is never the best way regardless of stack size. Another advantage a ss player has is if they raise the pf the spr plays the hand for them on the flop . Atleast it happens that way a lot.

example you have 99 on the button and 2 people limp. The game is 50c/1. You raise a standard raise of say 7. you now have 13 behind. Now it would be to time consuming to go through all the possible scenarios so i will just go through a couple. First scecario another player 3-bets big enough to put us all in. Say the SB to and it is folded around to us. Including the dead money we are geting over 3-1 and all the money will be in pot. In short it it much harder to bluff a ss player because they usually don't have enough money left to fold.

I have never had a problem playing against a short stack.

You don't have implied odds to hit a set against them, so don't play small pocket pairs against the shorties.

pretty simple, tighten up to the premium hands against them. I don't mind letting AJ go to their reraise preflop.

Who cares if they win a few small pots from you?

Eventually they are going to run into your kings or aces and you drag their tiny stack in... and they spent that entire time building their short stack with blinds and small raises only to lose all of it in one hand.

Terrible players play short stacks, there is no advantage to flopping a monster and being limited by a lack of chips in front of you... short stack players are -EV.