AQ vs. button raiser ($10NL).

I'm dipping my toes into cash games again and need some advice on this hand please.

Villain had joined the table about five orbits ago and hadn't done much, except raise every single button. He'd only been called once and had bet when checked to, so he hadn't shown down any hands. My questions are:

1) What is a good 3-betting range against this type of player?
2) Is my c-bet ok, or is it just burning chips?


Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10)

UTG: ($18.43)
CO: ($9.55)
Button: ($10.94)
Hero: ($11.39)
BB: ($9.44)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q , A .
2 folds, Button raises to $0.35, Hero raises to $1, 1 fold, Button calls $0.65

Flop: ($2.10) 3 , 8 , 6 (2 players)
Hero bets $1.40, Button raises to $9.94 (All-In), Hero folds

IDK, I flat and learn to play OOP

a good 3b range is more like A2-A9, suited crap
you don't really want to go all in with AQ preflop, do you?

I like your line here. I think its a fold to the raise on the flop but I think its a strong line to take here.

Originally Posted by iopq

IDK, I flat and learn to play OOP

Yeah, I was thinking a flat may be better here. Not wanting to build a big pot OOP and all that.

Originally Posted by Rage2100

Originally Posted by iopq

IDK, I flat and learn to play OOP

Yeah, I was thinking a flat may be better here. Not wanting to build a big pot OOP and all that.

IOPQ is much better at 3betting than I am, and may give some advice. 10nl is a great place to learn to 3bet a bit wider for value, probably not a great place to learn to 3bet light.

Typical value 3betting range at 10nl imo is QQ+, AK. The villains here who do 3bet tend to focus on these hands. What they do that's HORRIBLE when you 3bet is call with too wide a range. They open 55 from the CO, you 3bet w/ AK from the BTN and they can't let go. They can't raise, obv, so they call. When you get reads on a wide 3bet flatting, you're golden. You can 3bet AQ for value, maybe JJ. It depends on how unable they are to fold and how wide their initial PFR range is.

Again, I'd ask IOPQ to list some suggestions and criteria for a value range here. I'm still learning a lot about 3b/4b situations.

If you include some 3bet stats in your HUD, you'll quickly find a good number of regs who flat like 70% of 3bets while opening say 18% of their hands for a raise. Wow. That's like 13% of all hands, and usually they 4bet KK+ and often AK, too. So you totally own them postflop. Just add a single combo or two to your value 3bet range and learn to play those new hands aggressively postflop. Wait for your reads and good spots. Don't be afraid to fold to a 4bet when you think you're owned.

The funky and counter-intuitive thing about 3betting is that lots of hands play better just flatting ip than 3betting. Hands like JJ, TT, and AQ/AJ/ATs. So you take these hands and flat call, even oop, usually, though there are villains I won't play AJ against oop because their PFR is too strong and their postflop play isn't easily exploitable. I just fold and wait for better spots.

So that brings us to IOPQ's suggesting for 3betting the bottom end of hands, things like Axs, x < 8. This works especially well ip and, higher up, in the blinds to resteal. It's also bluffy and needs someone who (a) steals a ton and (b) can lay down a hand. You also need a solid read on their 3bet flatting range in various positions and to be certain of your postflop advantage against them. But bluffy at 10nl isn't great, since lots of the regs just fold and only play back with a premium range that has you crushed.

So my overall suggestion is to think about these things as you play KK+ and AK for 3bets in various spots. See what you get called with, raised with, etc. Get some reads, and think about how comfortable you'll be 3betting dry boards with air. Think about position and how it works to your advantage in 3bet pots. Then pick someone who's calling too much and folding/raising too little. 3bet them with A5s, and see what happens. You've gotta play it like you've got the nuts, repping AK+ when the A or K hits the flop. The nice thing about 10nl is that you'll find lots of guys willing to just check it down after calling a flop cbet even when they have a weak Ace or small pp that they should never have been calling with in the first place. So you can develop reads and learn to play postflop without stacking off horribly. And when you stack off someone's set of 2's when they were flatting your 3bet oop, make a note and profit later. That's good - if they'll keep doing it. And especially good if they didn't have a full stack when they did. You'll this type of horrible action at 10nl, which is one thing that makes 10nl such a great place to poker.

Again, ask someone who's better at this for their 3bet value ranges, flatting ranges and 3bet light ranges. At 10nl, I wouldn't worry too much about 3betting light. I'd just widen my 3bet value range a tad and profit when my reads are solid. Or at least, I would if I were playing 10nl. I wish I had learned some of this a while back.

3b is fine, size is not

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

3b is fine, size is not

only if you don't fold to a 4b

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

3b is fine, size is not

Elaborate so as we can learn plzzz!
I often find myself longing to here more from you but it so seldom comes. We really want to learn and I know you do not believe in handing all the info over cuz we should work through things in order to better learn. I do however believe if you would open up on occassion we would all benefit.
Now be a nice mod!

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

3b is fine, size is not

only if you don't fold to a 4b

folding to a 4bet is fine

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

3b is fine, size is not

only if you don't fold to a 4b

folding to a 4bet is fine

it's not a 3bet bluff, it's only a bluff if your opponent won't continue with worse hands, just b/c you fold to a 4bet doesn't make your 3bet a bluff. You were value-raising, ran into the top of his range, and made a fold due to an enormous equity disadvantage.

Originally Posted by HarleyGuy13

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

3b is fine, size is not

Elaborate so as we can learn plzzz!
I often find myself longing to here more from you but it so seldom comes. We really want to learn and I know you do not believe in handing all the info over cuz we should work through things in order to better learn. I do however believe if you would open up on occassion we would all benefit.
Now be a nice mod!

His problem is: Educating us drops his overall earning. =p

yup, don't want to give away info for free, If you pay me $50/hr I'll gladly tell you what you could easily find searching FTR for free.

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

yup, don't want to give away info for free, If you pay me $50/hr I'll gladly tell you what you could easily find searching FTR for free.

odd, I'm really bad at searching apparently because I can't find any math on 3-bet sizing/3 bet scenarios at all.

SPR.

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

yup, don't want to give away info for free, If you pay me $50/hr I'll gladly tell you what you could easily find searching FTR for free.

odd, I'm really bad at searching apparently because I can't find any math on 3-bet sizing/3 bet scenarios at all.

SPR.

Using the search criteria "3bet AND size OR sizing", I found this in about 9 seconds:

3bet sizing

The thread is an idea about 3betting smaller amounts, which obviously gives one an idea of what the "normal" sizing is. The conversation is started by Vi and joined by Goat, Miffed and Ash, all of whom know WAAAYYYY more than me about big pot poker.

Ragnar, IDK what the deal is. Hope you're leveling.

he's upset cuz he's a genius IRL but he cannot beat 10nl. Hell, that'd piss me off too, luckily I'm an idiot IRL who makes more than I would managing my local McDonalds by playing online poker.

Thanks for the replies everyone, I'll go and read the articles on 3-bet sizing now.

Robb, your replies are always brilliant.

Originally Posted by Rage2100

Robb, your replies are always brilliant.

LoL, but thx.

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

If you pay me $50/hr I'll gladly tell you what you could easily find searching FTR for free.

Actually, it was kinda hard. I mean, I had to CLICK on the little blue "Search" hyperlink at the top of the page (ffs!!), had to type 5 words - some in ALL CAPS (jeez!!), and then scan half a page of results. I was so worn out, I went straight to bed.

Next time, spenda, I'll ship you a quarter for the 15 seconds of your time it would take you to find this. Heck, I'll ship you a dollar so you can say your consulting rate's $200 an hour.

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

3b is fine, size is not

only if you don't fold to a 4b

folding to a 4bet is fine

then it's a bluff
although I understand BU will call really wide if we make our 3b tiny like that, even if we have like good equity against his range he'll rape us IP and always has the option to just start 4betting us like crazy

I'd rather call so he's still raping me IP, but at least he's not 4b bluffing us, and we're getting the bottom of his range to continue on the flop which we should c/raise a lot because he likely flops crap like bottom pair with his weak range

Originally Posted by Robb

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

yup, don't want to give away info for free, If you pay me $50/hr I'll gladly tell you what you could easily find searching FTR for free.

odd, I'm really bad at searching apparently because I can't find any math on 3-bet sizing/3 bet scenarios at all.

SPR.

Using the search criteria "3bet AND size OR sizing", I found this in about 9 seconds:

3bet sizing

The thread is an idea about 3betting smaller amounts, which obviously gives one an idea of what the "normal" sizing is. The conversation is started by Vi and joined by Goat, Miffed and Ash, all of whom know WAAAYYYY more than me about big pot poker.

Ragnar, IDK what the deal is. Hope you're leveling.

@ spenda. No not a Genious, a lot of shit has just come easily. I'm just pissed because you're in charge of something and have a hard time being nice about it. Lot of people look at you like a teacher, and are surprised when you don't act like one. I'm one of them.

@ Robb. That's cool, I appreciate it, there seems to be in that article a good discussion about 3 betting lightly and its effects on your opponent. But what I can't find, and I've tried to find, and I'll try to find it again I guess is this: The "Standard" 3-bet size, the math behind the standard, and why 3.5 is fine, but 4.0 is something that Spenda will argue is such an egregious mistake (give it a few seconds, Spenda's got to look the word up).
3.5 IP and 3.0 OOP seems like pretty solid advice. I've started trying to 3-bet my opponents more lightly, because I notice that I just about never get called when I 3-bet. I either get popped back (rarely) or my opponents fold (most often).

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

@ Robb. That's cool, I appreciate it, there seems to be in that article a good discussion about 3 betting lightly and its effects on your opponent. But what I can't find, and I've tried to find, and I'll try to find it again I guess is this: The "Standard" 3-bet size, the math behind the standard, and why 3.5 is fine, but 4.0 is something that Spenda will argue is such an egregious mistake (give it a few seconds, Spenda's got to look the word up).

3.5 IP and 3.0 OOP seems like pretty solid advice. I've started trying to 3-bet my opponents more lightly, because I notice that I just about never get called when I 3-bet. I either get popped back (rarely) or my opponents fold (most often).

Hmm...I found a lot of that in the thread:

Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

Lately, i've been sizing my 3bets a little smaller, usually 11BB as opposed to 13-14BB. I also usually c-bet to a size very close 2/3PSB, if not a little bit smaller.[/b]

Obv, Vi was expecting 3.5xbb or 4xbb from villain PFR and was thinking the standard 3bet amount was about 3.5x (maybe 4x oop). He's considering 3betting smaller, say, 3x-ish. And he gives recommendations on a flop cbet of 2/3's, which is going to be about 15bb's, given this setup.

Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

Originally Posted by Ash256

With regards to set mining, won't aware players only setmine when they've got favourable odds? Meaning that giving them odds to setmine is a bad thing?

(100BB stacks)

Reg: raises to 4BB (holding 2-2)
Me: raises to 11BB

Reg: '7BB to potentially win 89BB, I CALLZ'

In this situation, my opponent is getting basically 13:1 implied odds to stack me.

So now we have some maths, exact implied odds. Some discussion of how to handle set miners who call too loose. Then Vi goes on to discuss when he feels you HAVE to 3bet larger due to deeper stacks based on implied ods, and they even discuss some postflop lines and boards and hands.

I mean, they can't really help me much more than that without sitting down at my computer and clicking the raise button for me. I guess I don't know what you're looking for out of a 3bet thread.

About spenda not liking 4x 3bets - remember that the thread is 2 years old. Online poker changes, and I believe more regs on FTR a 3betting 3x / 3.5x and also, it appears from reading HH threads, most folks bet between 1/2 and 2/3's on the flop.

So what I get out of all of this is:
1. Standard 3bet size of 3.5x
2. Smaller 3bet size of 3x OK
3. Implied odds and villain's range most important preflop considerations
4. Preflop sets up postflop: we're thinking about how to get all the chips in on 3 streets when we hit (and cbet like we WANT to do this even sometimes when we miss), and plans for how to ditch without too much damage when have medium/weak hands.

Now, I think to myself, if spenda thinks a 4x 3bet size is horrible in some situation, and if Vi/Ash/Goat focus on #3 when discussing 3betting strategy, then what is it about #3 (implied odds / villain's likely calling range) that he's got his eye on? Was there a HUD read he focused on? Did position influence what he thought about villain's 3bet-flatting range? What could we deduce about the villain's reaction to a 4x 3bet that makes it improper?

Ragnar, I just don't get it. We seem to read the same thread and get two completely different sets of information out of it. Sure, Vi and those guys don't write out the math they're doing, but they say enough that you can work out the math they're doing on your own. I don't know what more you want. This plus following half a dozen 3b HH threads in the BC should set you up with all the info you need to analyze 3bet situations, imo.

All right, if you want maths...Happy fun squeeze time is a Spoony thread that really breaks down 3betting and sqeezing. Hero plays a hand where he gets squeezed and has to respond by guessing ranges and knows he may get 5bet if he 4bets the squeeze.

I swear, this whole search thing can help you find some amazing sh!t.

Originally Posted by Robb

All right, if you want maths...Happy fun squeeze time is a Spoony thread that really breaks down 3betting and sqeezing. Hero plays a hand where he gets squeezed and has to respond by guessing ranges and knows he may get 5bet if he 4bets the squeeze.

I swear, this whole search thing can help you find some amazing sh!t.

Oops, here's another: Some preflop 3bet concerns. Math backing up how to choose ranges. Strategic considerations. Everything you need to help you think about poker better.

Perhaps there's more to come - I'm done with the searches I'm doing to improve MY OWN game, so if I come across any more threads relevant here, I may take the time to post them. Just suggesting folks could learn a lot using the FTR search or (which is easier/better sometimes) using the google search with domain restricted to FTR. Either one can yield some great threads.