Aokrongly's 19 hands

i don't intend to...

the idea of "19 hands" is like a blues standard for guitar players; everyone knows the tune, but the good ones switch it up, turn it on it's head, and make it their own.

Lukie, YES to all you're saying BUT the beginning beginner who has played poker for 2 days needs to start somewhere! Think of 19 hands as the crawling stage - you gotta do it before you can even walk, let alone run. It's not pretty or complex but it's a necessary step. No beginner can go into a game playing K3s and say "oh it's okay cos I know the value of position and that that guy plays 35% of hands".

Originally Posted by jukejointroach

the idea of "19 hands" is like a blues standard for guitar players; everyone knows the tune, but the good ones switch it up, turn it on it's head, and make it their own.

Analogy of the day. That is just the perfect way to say what all the "defenders" of 19 hand have been trying to say in this thread.

That said, if you don't know how to tune your guitar (pot odds), play along with the band (reads), and step back when one of the other guys wants to play a solo(position), then you won't get very far.

(and just for clarificication I see myself as one of the defenders)

Originally Posted by Lukie

He's saying that for someone new to poker, this strategy is a non-losing one. I'd also guess he's saying that these more advanced topics you're bringing up, while important, will cause a noob more trouble than they're worth.[/quote]
Things like position, reads, and pot odds aren't advanced concepts. They are fundamentals of poker. To the point where I can't imagine a player beating any game that isn't downright awful without grasping these concepts.
[/quote]

"Downright awful". You just described most of the low-stakes NLHE on a handful of sites.

Seriously I can see how the idea of position should be introduced to the 19 hands, probably from the start (hands like QJo, 22-66 especially). The open-limp early seems to be a weakness too.

I see your point with pot-odds. Seems hard to define any post-flop play without it.

But reads? What skill in the "reads" department does a beginner need to have before they start playing? I mean, it seems to me that a lot of beginners here are working on trying to incorporate that into their play more after 10-20k hands because at the start you've just got no ability to read.
After a bit of experience one is starting to recognise some patterns, but how do you incorporate reads into a noob strategy? Beyond what AOK gives (handling raising-battles with high PPs).

Make sense?

If you stressed the importance of position, how to use it to your advantage, how to avoid playing out of position where you don't really know where you are at, the importance of agression, etc., I think your strategy would be more helpful to those just starting out.[/quote]

I may just be a beginner; but I reckon this is absolutely right.

Originally Posted by jackvance

What are you playing now Chardrian? Tourneys? Or you simply play less poker?

I play MTTs and Limit (at shorthanded tables).

I have a distinct problem laying down TPTK or overpairs - a huge stackable leak in NL RIng; not so bad in MTTs or Limit.

Originally Posted by Lukie

Things like position, reads, and pot odds aren't advanced concepts. They are fundamentals of poker. To the point where I can't imagine a player beating any game that isn't downright awful without grasping these concepts.

It took me a pretty long time to fully appreciate position. Reads... well obviously everyone knows they are important, but beginners wont be able to get any even if they know they need them. Even if they do figure out that seat 5 is kind of LAG it isnt going to make calling down with middle pair an easy decision after they have only played 500 hands. Starting with the top few hands just means you wont be faced with these kinds of decisions. It gives you a place to build on your postflop game without sinking at the start. Once you get a little better postflop you come back and throw some more hands in preflop.

Of course, you could just start out playing all sorts of hands. Youd probably improve your postflop game alot faster, but you would lose an awful lot of money doing it and you would probably have problems with discipline later.

Excellent post - newbie's definitely bookmark this one.
I've been reading/watching this post almost every day and finally felt it necessary to add my 2 cents...

First, you can make money using the 19 - ONLY at the specified tables tho (40%+ and pots worthwhile) if you are having trouble finding these tables and you're losing money - GO TO ANOTHER SITE.

Second, and most importantly - What you do choose to do preflop has little consequence (within reason! ie: calling preflop all-ins) to your bankroll. You're postflop decisions are going to make or break you. If using the 19 rule see aok's postflop post:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-32893.htm

Here are my comments/strategy (all due respect aok) on the postflop advice:
It's ok to call a min raise on the flop, on the turn however put your opponent (especially if there is more than one that called a flop raise) on the best possible hand for that board and decide 1. Do you or can you beat that hand? and 2. Can you draw to beat that hand and if so, do you have odds (try to guesstimate the final pot $$$ based on how much money you and your opponents have) to keep dumping money into the pot? If either 1. nor 2. apply LAY IT DOWN.
One more time...LAY IT DOWN (your TPTK or 2 pair don't mean diddly against that set your opponent has [little devil will be on your shoulder whispering in your ear "no way, he' bluffing - GO ALL IN] so LAY IT DOWN, wait for your nuts.)
Make a note if you get big-raised or all-in raised by someone, if you notice you have the same donk forcing you to fold TPTK or 2 pair repeatedly (more than 3 times) go ahead and give it a shot if you hold the goods (OR, you could just LAY IT DOWN and wait for your nuts...then bend them over )

3. It's ok to start branching out from the 19 on the button and later (way later when your bankroll is doubled, from the co...again within reason - I personally don't play rags but will call w/ suited connectors Axs and sometimes Kxs) - but the most important decision will be whether or not to LAY IT DOWN postflop.

4. More on LAY IT DOWN...On these loose tables you will have buttheads calling you down with poopy. Just this morning on a NL .10/.20 I flopped Ts6c3d holding QQ (raised $1.25 preflop) the turn was 2c...I had one caller and bet 75% of the pot on both the flop and turn the river was another six (I had position). When chked to me I chked back (if he would've bet anything higher than 25% of the pot I would've LAYED IT DOWN. The moron called me down w/ J6 offsuit and took the pot.
Again, put them on the best hand and LAY IT DOWN if you can't beat it - no one cares if you hold AA and someone beats you with a 64o because they're an idiot...wait for your nuts and slam it on the river.

Good luck!

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