5NL FR - KK facing preflop reraise

This is at the same table as my recently posted KK hand, where I had a terrific run of cards over the first few orbits at the table. This is the first orbit, and third time I raise pre.

Opp has folded all his hands so far so no reads at all. He may have been enticed to 3-bet with his entire opening range because of my loose image. So I'd put him on 88+,AQ+ for the reraise.

Question is whether to 4-bet or call. I know that calling 3-bets OOP is generally not advisable but I think that 4-betting probably polarizes his range a lot. He may well only shove over with KK+ and call with QQ, AKs and fold the rest.

So 7 combos shove over and if I believe my ranges I'd have to fold. 8 weaker combos call and all the rest folds, so I am only getting value from a really small part of his range and would in theory have to make a tough fold if he 5-bet/shove (that's theory because I'm never folding this in reality).

If you 4-bet, how much and why?

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

Hero (MP1) ($5)
MP2 ($5.50)
MP3 ($3.95)
CO ($3.94)
Button ($5.06)
SB ($4.37)
BB ($4.26)
UTG ($8.77)
UTG+1 ($5)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K, K
2 folds, Hero bets $0.20, 2 folds, CO raises $0.50, 3 folds

Hero?

edit: I realize that I don't have nearly enough reads to put him on such a tight shoving or calling range, but for the sake of the discussion, let's pretend I know he is a 8/8/2.5 3% 3b nit.

Value 4-bet to $1.25 cuz its 5nl. How badly do you want to play KK OOP in a pot that you flatted a 3-bet?

It seems you have 72% equity on the range that you put him on for his 3-bet so certainly raising makes sense?

I'd like to try and calculate this but I'm not sure how.

(7x5 + 1) +(6) + (24) total combos that he 3-bets with.
= 66 combos that he 3-bets with.

Of which 7 he shoves, 8 he calls, and 51 he folds.

He shoves 10.5%, he calls 12%, he folds 77% of the time.

Pot is 77.5
So what is the minimum bet that is EV?

If B is the bet and P is the pot then:

-(10.5% x B) + (77% x P) (+/-?) (12% x B+P) = 0

Do we add the percentage of times he calls because we beat those combos or what?
Or is that segment of the equation in fact:
(the equity percentage that hero would have against his calling range multiplied by the 12% multiplied by Villain' stack) - (the equity percentage of Villain's calling range hand multiplied by his stack multiplied by the 12%)

I wish I knew.

It seems you have 72% equity on the range that you put him on for his 3-bet so certainly raising makes sense?

I'd like to try and calculate this but I'm not sure how.

(7x5 + 1) +(6) + (24) total combos that he 3-bets with.
= 66 combos that he 3-bets with.

Of which 7 he shoves, 8 he calls, and 51 he folds.

He shoves 10.5%, he calls 12%, he folds 77% of the time.

Pot is 77.5
So what is the minimum bet that is EV?

If B is the bet and P is the pot then:

-(10.5% x B) + (77% x P) (+/-?) (12% x B+P) = 0

Do we add the percentage of times he calls because we beat those combos or what?
Or is that segment of the equation in fact:
(the equity percentage that hero would have against his calling range multiplied by the 12% multiplied by Villain' stack) - (the equity percentage of Villain's calling range hand multiplied by his stack multiplied by the 12%)

I wish I knew.

Note: the below is just an example to explain to Tasha, it's not meant to justify plays in the hand above.

First, I am holding KK, so keep in mind these two K's cannot participate to the combos in his range.

Say he 3-bets with 88+,AQ+:
- there are 6 each combos of 88-QQ and AA = 6x6 = 36
- there is 1 combo of KK
- there are 16 combos of AQ (4 of them suited)
- there are 8 combos of AK (2 of them suited)

Total 61 combos

Yes I am ahead of his 3b range. This is the relevant range if I call. But if I 4b (say to $1.50), and he calls or shove, the range I will be up against is his 4b calling or his shoving range. In other words, it only makes sense to raise if I am ahead of his 4b calling range AND 5b ranges together, called his "continuing" range.

So let's suppose his continuing range is QQ+,AKs. That's 6 QQ combos, 1 KK combo, 6 AA combos and 2 AKs combos only. Total 15 combos. So he continues 15/61 = 25% of the time when I 4b. He folds 75% of the time.

When he continues, let's assume he shoves only KK+. I would have to fold because I don't have the odds to call (22.6% equity < 30.7% pot odds). KK+ is 7 combos, so that's 7/15 = 50% of his continuing range. The rest calls, and against his calling range QQ,AKs I have 78% equity.

It's not finished. Now you have to use the above numbers to calculate the EV of 4-betting and the EV of calling and see which one is higher.

Currently in the pot is $0.73. Let's say I 4b to $1.25 (adding $1.05 in the pot)

4-bet EV =
- 75% of the time he folds and I win $0.73
- 12.5% of the time he shoves, I fold and I loose the $1.05 I added in the pot
- 12.5% of the time he calls. Let's imagine for the sake of the exercise that none of us will put more money in the pot on further streets (or if one of us does, the other knows he is an underdog and folds). So 78% of the time I will win the $0.73, but 12% of the time I will loose my $1.05 investment.

So the equation is 0.75*$0.73 - 0.125*$1.05 + 0.125*(0.78*$0.73-0.12*$1.05) = $0.50 The EV of 4betting is $0.5

Now need to calculate the EV of just calling his 3b: if we only call he 3b, we are sort of underrepresenting our hand (he cannot put us on a range as narrow as if we 4b), so there is a better chance that more money will go in the pot (this is made more likely if you have position on him, that is why in general it is better to consider calling when you have position, on top of all the other advantages of position). Let's say that the stacks will go in to simplify. If we call we are now up against his whole 3b range, 88+,AQ+, against which we have 70% equity.

So EV of calling (stacks will go in after the flop, effective remaining stack is $3.44, dead money in the pot is $0.73 and the call costs $0.30):
- 70% of the time we win $3.44+$0.73
- 30% of the time we loose $3.44+$0.30
0.7*$4.17-0.3*$3.73=$1.8 >> $0.5

However if no more money went in the pot when just calling, then the EV would only be 0.7*$0.73-0.3*$0.30=$0.42 < $0.50, but not by much. This is to show that it doesn't take that much more extra money in the pot to make calling a superior play (you can calculate how much more money exactly should go in the pot to make calling a better play).

Another way of seeing it is that the 4b has the effect of defining our range very narrowly, allowing him to play almost perfectly against our range.

Or yet another way to see it is that we could have a better chance of extracting by just calling.

Now that's all theory. At 2/5NL, pretend to be a donkey and insta-shove all your stack over his 3b. You'd be surprised how often you get called...

Hope this helps. It helped me also to refresh these concepts. If anyone has good links to articles about the theory of 3/4-betting, please ship.

Wow! Thanks for putting in the time and effort for this. I am going to have to go over it a few times slowly.
I have a question though. You wrote:

I would have to fold because I don't have the odds to call (22.5% equity < 25% pot odds).

Where did you get these numbers from? Is the equity of your hand against his 5-betting range (KK+)? And where did the 25% come from?

After all that calculating it seems you have answered your original question. It is better to call rather than 4-bet.

I was interested in calculating what the minimum amount to bet to be EV+ and when I get a chance I will try and calculate it based on your equations above. Also would be interesting to see the EV of going all-in.
And I am seconding your request for more threads that have this kind of calculation in them.

Originally Posted by daviddem

At 2/5NL, pretend to be a donkey and insta-shove all your stack over his 3b. You'd be surprised how often you get called...

I'd 4bet to $1.75 and call if he shoves. Against an unknown, I'll always stack off with KK pre.

There are too many bad players that are willing to stack off preflop with worse.

this is his absolute tightest stack-off range:

Board:
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 47.293% 43.79% 03.51% 67479612 5402286.00 { KK }
Hand 1: 52.707% 49.20% 03.51% 75823176 5402286.00 { KK+, AKs, AKo }

so it's not going to be terrible with any amount of your stacks already in the pot to 4bet and look to just get it in against this range and basically flip. obviously the more QQ or AQs or JJ he calls with, the better 4betting becomes. i probably 4bet to $1.4 or $1.5 to give him some stack size room to go psycho think we're still full of shit, if he has even noticed you've been raising heaps. basically 4-betting allows him to make a mistake. his two main mistakes could be:
- flatting a 4-bet with a weakish range (against a very strong range) at the risk of being stacked on certain flops (ie when his JJ flops an overpair etc)
- jamming with a range that has anything more than KK+,AK in it, because you clearly have the nuts when you 4bet

Where did you get these numbers from? Is the equity of your hand against his 5-betting range (KK+)? And where did the 25% come from?

The equity is the equity of my KK against his 5-bet-shoving range (considered to be KK+ for the exercise). The pot odds were wrong, and I corrected them. Pot odds to call his shove:
- the total pot if I call would be 2*$3.94 + $0.07 (blinds) = $7.95
- I'd have to call $3.94-$1.50 = $2.44 (the $1.50 is the money I already put in the pot before his shove)

So 2.44/7.95=30.69%

About the hand, I do agree with a value 4b. Pretty sure he calls, or even shoves with worse.

I did 4b and he folded, which is why I wondered whether a call would have been a decent play.

He's not even 100bb deep. Please value 4bet/get it in

Originally Posted by tyrn

Value 4-bet to $1.25 cuz its 5nl. How badly do you want to play KK OOP in a pot that you flatted a 3-bet?

Quick note, "cuz it's 5nl" is probably the worst thinking ever. Also playing KK OOP isn't horrible, if your entire flatting range consists of medium strength hands OOP you're going to lose sooo much money especially if he's 3bing a very wide range etc.(Hint: Does he make mistakes when you 4b and he has 98o?)

obv 4b get it in because lolbalance etc

Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

Quick note, "cuz it's 5nl" is probably the worst thinking ever. Also playing KK OOP isn't horrible, if your entire flatting range consists of medium strength hands OOP you're going to lose sooo much money especially if he's 3bing a very wide range etc.(Hint: Does he make mistakes when you 4b and he has 98o?)

obv 4b get it in because lolbalance etc

lolbalancing 4-bets at 5nl will just tilt you when someone calls your bluff with 98s and wins with 9 high. The vast majority of players at 5nl will call way more often than they should. Value betting is huge and bluffing should be reserved for the best scenarios. That's what is meant by "cuz its 5nl". Bet for value, fold when behind. Way too many people stacking off light.

I'm not saying you will lose money balancing ranges at 5nl, just that you won't be making any more money. No one is paying attention to anything more than this opponent is tight or loose, and even then some don't even seem to notice that. If OP needs to ask about 4 betting KK, I don't see how you can suggest anything other than working on learning to play ABC poker first.

Originally Posted by kmind

He's not even 100bb deep. Please value 4bet/get it in

This for sure!

Originally Posted by kmind

He's not even 100bb deep. Please value 4bet/get it in

I'm still not sure how this works. Why is this better?

do you understand what lolbalance means?

4bet to 1.4-1.7. i'd opt to go bigger because most players are calling regardless of what you bet

reasons why we're 4betting and getting this in:
1. we have kings
2. hes 80 bb deep
3. we have kings
4. this is 5nl
5. we have kings
6. villain is unknown



did i mention we have kings?

Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

do you understand what lolbalance means?

probably not

getting kings in preflop 80 bb deep against an unknown has absolutely nothing to do with balance




and why would u balance anything at all at 5nl? no one is paying attention to what your cards are, they're looking at their own

this is like a dream spot to turn auto-muck off, make an image fold and show your hand

Originally Posted by surviva316

this is like a dream spot to turn auto-muck off, make an image fold and show your hand

hahahhahahaha epic

god you're all so fucking retarded, learn to properly interpret shit then maybe u'll break out of 5nl ffs

I don't understand what lolobalance is, I thought it was just one of your cute words. I assume it's 4bet bluffing from time to time so people who pay attention don't automatically assume you have AA/KK only when you 4bet. Now I'll be the first to point out that there are people at the micros who pay attention, but not at this level. I think my 4betting range is AA/KK at 2nl, and they always fucking call, because they have a 3bet hand, it's unfoldable, they don't care what I have.

This spot? 4bet, raise to $1.25, if he calls, wtf just put him in on the flop, if he shoves, see if you can break your insta-snap-call record of 0.4 seconds. If he folds, tell him he's a pussy in the chat bar and that you rule the table with 23o.

*edit
OP asked for reasons for 4betting...
This is micros, imo shoving range for unknown villain, especially one with less than 100bb stack, against a 4bet, is JJ+ AQ+... if he's an uber-fish we can add 88-TT AJs.

Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

god you're all so fucking retarded, learn to properly interpret shit then maybe u'll break out of 5nl ffs

LOL fo real. fucking people in the beginner forum don't know everything there is to know about poker wtf! They'll never understand us poker pro's. LETS GET MAD

Instead of starting a pissing contest in this thread, let's have a "lolbalance" entry added to the FTR poker dictionary... I am also not 100% sure what it means

the prefix lol- just means "i laugh out loud at that word [or at least how it's being used in the given context]"

in other words, his comment merely meant "balance doesn't matter at 5nl ldfo"

Originally Posted by surviva316

the prefix lol- just means "i laugh out loud at that word [or at least how it's being used in the given context]"

in other words, his comment merely meant "balance doesn't matter at 5nl ldfo"

lolthis


but yea if you read yawns thread he basically gives arguments for calling with KK to strengthen your flatting range there when your oop, then at the end he basically says but fuck that its 5nl stick more monies in with KK.

I'll give him his due though, we are all fucking retarded. I can't argue that point.

Originally Posted by philly and the phanatics

lolthis


but yea if you read yawns thread he basically gives arguments for calling with KK to strengthen your flatting range there when your oop, then at the end he basically says but fuck that its 5nl stick more monies in with KK.

That doesn't makes sense since his first sentence was: "cuz it's 5nl" is probably the worst thinking ever. Oh well, looks like he was right, without his intelligence to enlighten us, we're too retarded to interpret "shit".

don't know if i'm helping the shit show or contributing to it, but more clarification:

saying "you should 4b because it's 5nl[period]," is different from making the observation that balance doesn't matter here because it's not mid-high stakes no limit, so flatting to strengthen you're flatting range is leveling yourself

That's kinda what saying it's 5nl means though imo, it's not mid-high stakes no limit.

I definitely agree with icanhastreebet's first post now that I understand what he was saying. That was kind of a pointless thread derailment looking back lol.

Well, I for one now know what balance is, so this hasn't been a waste a of effort. Anyone else who wants to here's the link: Balance.

Thanks Tash, pretty much what I was expecting but finally someone in the know confirmed it!

And thank you to you for clarifying the matter. However, it requires further investigation. In the past when I have suggested playing the occasional hand that is far out your range with intention of deliberately losing it just to shake up any hand ranges that your opponents might be trying to fit you with I have been told it is a bad idea. Having said that, according to the definition above its seems it is something that you do only in a very specific situation rather than as a more general preflop play.

Balance really is beyond the scope of most micros players, it's not something I'm going to concern myself with until I'm at 10nl the earliest. I'm nearly always 4betting KK if given the chance, because if villain is 3betting, he almost always has a nice hand, one that he won't fold pre flop. Flatting here for balance at 5nl is just losing value imo.

And very occasionally, we might run into someone with large enough testicles to 5bet bluff. Mine aren't that big, I've 3bet bluffed countless times, but I always respect a 4bet.

In that case 5-bet bluffing is out of my skill set.

tasha, you don't need to be 3 bet bluffing let alone 4 or 5 bet bluffing. Just reading a definition of balance doesn't really help if you don't know why you are doing it.

For example at 2nl , you will open small pocket pairs UTG because you will get paid off by the villains when you hit your set. as you move up , you are less likely to get paid when you hit your set, you are far more likely to get 3 bet and have to fold making set mining with your small pocket pairs unprofitable.

If you drop your smaller pocket pairs from your UTG range though you will become really easy to play against by the regs if your UTG range is just medium and big pocket pairs. If you add in some suited connecters though you balance the strength of your range as your opponents will now have to allow for you potentially having flushes and straights and their draws in your range. At 2nl your opponents are looking at their own cards , by 25nl regs will all be thinking about what cards you have as well, and how your range has connected with the flop.

I've met women with large testicles. I think they hide them in their womb or something.

Keith, thanks for the explanation. I clearly need to read up more about balance and it isn't something I'm going to try at the moment.
Would you really continue to play suited connectors UTG against a 3-bet or does that already depend on what position the 3-bet comes from and who is making it?

Ongbonga, I've met women like that too. Some of them wear them proudly on their chests.

well simply put i think holding KK at 5 nl the monies are always going in, nit or no nit. I like the way u were reasoning about the hand combinatorics but i think this might be a classic case of outleveling yourself. presonally i like 4 betting big , let's suppose he calls and u get to see a flop, i think you would have the proper stacksize vs potsize ratio to get it in on almost any flop. pre if he overshoves i'd snap it all day every day. But maybe that's just me being a card dependant fool.

gl