5NL - Crushed twice

If a villain has a very tight UTG range and i'm on the button with 78s i'll be calling all day as a set mine, i wouldn't call from MP though because there are too many players to act behind who could squeeze us out of the pot pre-flop.

Originally Posted by seven-deuce

If a villain has a very tight UTG range and i'm on the button with 78s i'll be calling all day as a set mine, i wouldn't call from MP though because there are too many players to act behind who could squeeze us out of the pot pre-flop.

Hmm, OK. Is it worth considering squeeze plays at 2 & 5NL or should I just take them out of my range now?

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

Hmm, OK. Is it worth considering squeeze plays at 2 & 5NL or should I just take them out of my range now?

I'd probably squeeze at 5nl. You have to pick your spots though and don't be doing it that frequently that it become obvious that's what your doing.

For example;

Lets say your in the BB with A4s and a guy who's been stealing a lot from the CO opens, he gets flatted by the BTN this would typically be a good squeeze spot, because the CO has a weak range and is going to be folding a lot and we can assume the BTN has a somewhat weak range as well and will be folding a fair amount of the time.

We also have an ace blocker which weakens there ranges, they now have less combos of the best hands they would be continuing with to a 3bet squeeze. Couple that with a tight image you have plenty of FE providing they aren't complete stations that never fold to 3bet.

But you should have worked that out already before you decide that squeezing would be a good strategy. You may not be able to squeeze on every table you play on at 5nl just look for good spots and don't pass them up when you see one.

Originally Posted by seven-deuce

If ... i'm on the button with 78s i'll be calling all day as a set mine.

shorely shome mishtake?

Originally Posted by DoubleJ

shorely shome mishtake?

str8mine?

The difference between SC's and small PP's is that with a PP you flop a set or not, which clearly determines whether you continue or not. With SC's you mostly flop draws, which may well end up costing you more money if you keep chasing or unsuccessfully try to semi-bluff with them.

Originally Posted by daviddem

...with a PP you flop a set or not, which clearly determines whether you continue or not.

i don't think this is entirely true.

you can play fit-or-fold w/ yer PPs, but these are often good spots to float a high cBet/low Turn agression villain HU

EDIT:

Originally Posted by rong

...Also play around with calling their cbet and raising checked turns as lots of people will cbet regardless of the flop and then shut down.

yes, what he said.

This thread's going bonkers. Nice 1 Coby

Thanks lads, some really good posts in this thread.

Do we have the same thoughts about calling in MP with Suited A's? Do we call UTG's raise or fold again? Also, medium PP's ( 77-99 )....if UTG raises do we call or do we 3bet?

Fold A rag suited in mp against pretty much anyone.

Re mid pp's, depends on utg. The tighter the better for set mining, depends on villains post flop play otherwise. Some people will just let you take it if they miss, in which case you intend to take the hand on the flop regardless of whether you hit. Also play around with calling their cbet and raising checked turns as lots of people will cbet regardless of the flop and then shut down.

Originally Posted by rong

Re mid pp's, depends on utg. The tighter the better for set mining, depends on villains post flop play otherwise. Some people will just let you take it if they miss, in which case you intend to take the hand on the flop regardless of whether you hit. Also play around with calling their cbet and raising checked turns as lots of people will cbet regardless of the flop and then shut down.

So you're more inclined to just call rather than 3bet? I never feel comfortable going to a flop multi-way with a medium PP that's why I am asking about a 3bet.

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

So you're more inclined to just call rather than 3bet? I never feel comfortable going to a flop multi-way with a medium PP that's why I am asking about a 3bet.

You're trying to use the buttons in front of you to create a more favourable situation for yourself, which is great. But 3betting into a range that you're already behind is srsly not the best way to turn your 77-99 into dollars.

It's true that the more players in the pot, the lower your equity. However, you still have the best hand sometimes and utg is also less likely to cbet multiway, making it easier to fold to aggression. If you're really not sure, play set-or-forget if you get overcalled and play the flop if you go HU vs UTG.

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

I never feel comfortable going to a flop multi-way with a medium PP that's why I am asking about a 3bet.

You may be underestimating the power of a set. I'm regularly surprised when I go over to PokerStove and check my flopped set against a three to a straight or flush OTF. Yes, there's the occasional overset to deal with, but it's rare enough to make this a very powerful value betting hand. And the ability to pair up for a full house makes this a true powerhouse.

What's your plan for the hand with suited A's? Flop a FD? Garbage, fold like superman on laundry day.

77-99: don't 3bet (what hands is UTG folding/calling/4betting a 3bet with?). Flat call, let CO/BTN etc decide if they want to play. HU if there's no A on the flop and only one overcard you will often have the best hand. (It's surprising in general how often a flop misses UTG's range).

For calling range, See Theory of Poker (if you don't have ToP, pm me). As a rule of thumb, you need a hand at least as good as the opener's range to call with (your calling range from any position vs EP open is their EP range). This is what Sklansky calls the gap concept.

Deviate from the gap concept when implied odds are high (you take the worst of it preflop hoping to win it all back when you flop well). Setmining is the classic example of implied odds at work.

I hate 3b mid pps. What are you hoping will happen? If you're just looking for a fold then better to do it with A rag suited. You're not trying to build a pot as you are well behind villains range. Just call and see a flop. But don't just play set or forget, you'd often be better folding pre. Based on villains stats give him a range and if the flop isn't great for him play accordingly.

Originally Posted by rong

I hate 3b mid pps. What are you hoping will happen? If you're just looking for a fold then better to do it with A rag suited. You're not trying to build a pot as you are well behind villains range. Just call and see a flop. But don't just play set or forget, you'd often be better folding pre. Based on villains stats give him a range and if the flop isn't great for him play accordingly.

The 3bet is mainly to try and keep Button/blinds from limping in behind with Ax type hands. Obviously it's not ideal building a pot with a medium PP but just wondered whether it was a better alternative than going 3 handed+ to the flop.

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

The 3bet is mainly to try and keep Button/blinds from limping in behind with Ax type hands. Obviously it's not ideal building a pot with a medium PP but just wondered whether it was a better alternative than going 3 handed+ to the flop.

They can't overlimp if UTG has raised dude.

Originally Posted by Lucothefish

They can't overlimp if UTG has raised dude.

Wrong terminology. I meant to stop button/blinds from calling behind me.

Also I love seeing a flop multiway with a medium pp. Your set with be the best hand most of the time and you have a greater chance of someone else hitting enough to pay you off. It's also one of the times you can fold if you miss without worrying too much.

AXs/sc type hands have a good chance of paying off your set in a multiway pot. Their 2p or 1p draw hands will often see another street or two unimproved and are often overvalued as they aren't considered obvious to spot.

If you 3bet PP's vs an UTG range your essentially turning them into a bluff for no reason whatsoever when they have plenty of value in str8mining.

As a general rule of thumb you don't want to be bluffing into a strong range.

Also you want to take a pot multiway with mid to low PP's the more the merrier. There's more chance someone will connect with the flop the more hands are actually seeing the flop, so if you happen to flop a set theres more chance someone has flopped top pair or a decent draw that they will call you with.

Originally Posted by seven-deuce

If you 3bet PP's vs an UTG range your essentially turning them into a bluff for no reason whatsoever when they have plenty of value in str8mining.

You did that one on purpose!

Originally Posted by Lucothefish

You did that one on purpose!

Soul read.

OK lads, once again, thank you very much.

I am sure I will have some more questions soon enough!

OK, so an Irishman, a Welshman and an ex-Scouser walk into an internet forum....

Originally Posted by DoubleJ

OK, so an Irishman, a Welshman and an ex-Scouser walk into an internet forum....

OH SHIT! That cut me deep. Scouse all the way!

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

OH SHIT! That cut me deep. Scouse all the way!

sorry, man - i couldn't resist....

Do you categorize the players at your tables? You can normally do so with reasonable accuracy within 30 hands. Just use very basic categories based on preflop stats, say use nit/tag, loose passive and loose aggressive. If you do nothing more than this and remember to adjust your play based on which of these categories is in the hand or yet to act then you will be moving in the right direction.

Yeah I do that. Much easier with PT as well, as you said, you can normally tell within 30 hands or so. I also write a lot of hand specifics down, probably too much information actually, could spend less of my table time doing that.

I don't really get the concept of hero having opening ranges. My range at all times is as wide as I can get away with.

Originally Posted by rong

I don't really get the concept of hero having opening ranges. My range at all times is as wide as I can get away with.

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

Yes, those are guidelines for opening ranges.

Having static ranges is clearly a mistake. Notice the underline.

SPR is usually an important factor when deciding whether to flat KK+. It needs to be low.

Originally Posted by Fielmann

SPR is usually an important factor when deciding whether to flat KK+. It needs to be low.

wat. I could easily come up with a valid argument for flatting KK+ w/ 250bb+ stacks and I'm sure many other people could too.

Keith, you need some form of anger management therapy.

Nah , im fine. Just look at the evidence. look at the rakeback thread where he put a nonsense reply in despite rpm and threebet having said in the thread that rakeback is not available on stars as its returned to the player via the vip scheme.Here he's asking which site and bankroll cobra plays. The site was answered in the hands cobra posted, and the bankroll question is irrelevent. In the OP cobra clearly said that he moved up when he was rolled to and moved back down after losses and ground it back up again.If he'd read the thread(s) he wouldn't have posted what he did.

Keith was a lot more polite than most. Personally I prefer a little black humor with these 5-a-monthers

OOPS.

Yeah, I see now that you are completely correct. Just scrap the UTG range, and play the MP range from UTG.

UTG { 77+,ATs+,KJs+,QJs,AQo+ }
HJ { 66+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,AJo+,KQo }
CO { 22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T8s+,97s+,87s,76s,65s,54s, ATo+,KTo+,QTo+,J9o+,T8o+,98o }
BU { PP's, broadways, all Ax, suited Kx, SC's, S1G's, S2G's, J7s }

Always consider any CO hand when on SB. CONSIDER it, don't just open the whole range. There's plenty of times you can play SC's and S1G's, even S2G's, by limping pre-flop when you're getting 7:1 or more for your odds. Just be wary of a BB who likes to raise limped pots.

Also, always be aware of how deep stacks are on the limpers you intend to raise. The ESS (really the SPR) OTF will radically change how you play your hands, so plan ahead before you open the hand.

As always, these are not hard-and-fast rules, just guidelines for opening ranges.

Also, I'm a FR player, and other people might have better vacuum ranges for 6-max.