4bet Shoving AKo Pre-Flop-Line check

Originally Posted by Openside

I think you have found a hole in my logic. Based upon the premise that his 3bet range =/= his calling range, if we assign a 3bet range of 22+, AQs+, AKs+ (138 combos) and a calling range of QQ+, AQs+, AQo+ (50 combos) dont we have 63% Fold EV? ([138-50]/138).

Your saying his 3bet range = Calling range, deduced from his bet sizing?



I am missing something here. If Fold EV = (3betRange-CallRange)/3betRange, if we increase his 3bet range our Fold EV increases. How can increasing his 3bet range make it "more of a fold"?

ok a couple of things

1st - its fold equity no fold ev

2nd- While he may be 3betting 8% and not stacking off with that whole 8%, its highly unlikely he is doing it with that sizing, so unless you have seen him 3bet this size with the bottom of his range, then i would not assume this is like 22 here.

3rd- on a similar note, unless you have seen him 3bet/fold this sizing before i think its a lot safer to assume he is never folding to a shove

4th- Kmind is not just including 22-99 in his 3betting range, but also in his 4bet calling range. When examining our equity (pot equity not fold equity) we notice that as we add in more hands like 22-99 (hands that are beating AK preflop) then we have even less pot equity than if he just had TT+ AQ+ DUCY?

Originally Posted by philly and the phanatics

ok a couple of things

1st - its fold equity no fold ev

Sorry, wrong terminology Is my math correct tho, assuming those ranges?

Originally Posted by philly and the phanatics

2nd- While he may be 3betting 8% and not stacking off with that whole 8%, its highly unlikely he is doing it with that sizing, so unless you have seen him 3bet this size with the bottom of his range, then i would not assume this is like 22 here.

I follow.

Originally Posted by philly and the phanatics

3rd- on a similar note, unless you have seen him 3bet/fold this sizing before i think its a lot safer to assume he is never folding to a shove

bet sizing is the white elephant missing from my logic in this hand.

Originally Posted by philly and the phanatics

4th- Kmind is not just including 22-99 in his 3betting range, but also in his 4bet calling range. When examining our equity (pot equity not fold equity) we notice that as we add in more hands like 22-99 (hands that are beating AK preflop) then we have even less pot equity than if he just had TT+ AQ+ DUCY?

Ah ok, i knew i was misunderstanding kminds point. I understood it reduced our pot equity but was too focused on my overweighted Fold equity.

Has he always been 3betting you this huge IP? If he's an uberdonk who likes to pull that kind of stuff frequently this would be a no brainer ship