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Wow I'm the first to say it:

Nice post.

But what do you really think, AOK?

Another great post AOK. You really should write a book

Excellent post AOK. Point taken. For a long time my goal has been to play a certain $ table and be profitable at it. [I played that $ table for the first time last night and came out even, hehe But it’s a start and I am very happy with my progress.]

But I am changing my goal.
My goal will now be to:
Continue learning about poker.
Continue striving to improve.
Continue to build my bankroll. (long term building, not every day…losing sessions are normal)
Continue to move up in stakes when my BR safely permits it.

The Dalai Lama of Poker has spoken

Thank you for another great post. Everytime I go into a slump and feel the doom and gloom, a post like this helps me get from under the rock I climbed under.

It gets tough not to become result driven especially if you have a run of good results. Sometimes you can't even be sure if these good results were a result of good poker. You get so fixated on the results..... You lose sight of the path you took to reach them. Nothing like a bad run to make you ask the tough questions...if you are not too busy moping ala Matasow!

So, Here is to focusing on the path and enjoying all its highs and lows! Thanks AOK.

Athletcs reitered or not use drugs because they are under pressure. Not because they hate them selfs. Because they have to practise , they have to improve , they have to win. Although not everyone use drugs.
For me , you , everyone from FTR finish 9th in the wsop is a great thing because its just a dream for us . We dream to be Michael Jordan , dream to be Phil Ivey . For Phil Ivey finish 9th in wsop is just a bad wsop year. Why ? Because he have the skill to finish first and he defently know that he deserve to finish 1st.
For example : Lets choose a random FTR small stakes NL player and tell to him. What if with a magical way suddenly u have the skills and bankroll to play 5/10$ but no matter what u would be able to make 300$ after 5 hours of poker. No matter what.
The small stakes player would be like " oh yes ! thats my dream ! please !"
But the solid 5/10$ player who fight in order to build his roll for 5/10$ , to improve his game , who spend years , months , hours in order to reach there... he obviously not care of making 300$ in 5 hours.

Be happy with ur life is a whole different thing.
Its in human nature not to be happy.
You dream something or u aim on something , once u make it u aim somewhere higher. Not because u are not happy but because u want more.
You are not greedy. You are just smart enough not to be satisfayed with anything less than u think urself deserve.

There is nothing better than evolving.
Sky is the limit

There is too great posts in this thread, different but both equally valid. I think which one you listen too depends on your personality and how you handle certain things in life such as pressure, failings, successes and expectations.

Do what works for you and your personality.

Great posts guys.

TLDR.



But seriously, I don't think the basic situation you describe to begin with is true. There are many professional sportspeople who go on and live normal productive lives. They just don't get in the news...

Anyway, the general message is one that should be heeded by those that don't think of life like that. But I think you'll find there are lot more normal balanced individuals around than you might think.

yea, OK. The point was what do you do AFTER you make a goal? Maybe the sports thing is off the mark. I'm certain that "I have to practice" is no reason to do drugs. And I'm sorry for anyone who thinks they have to use drugs to relieve pressure in their life. Because they won't.

But the point of the thread is that if you get results centered you will ultimately lose, but if you stay process centered you will continue to grow. I would dare say that professional athletes who handle the end of their career gracefully are process centered and those that don't are results centered. But that's just my opinion. If you like it great. If you disagree then more power to you.

Enjoy Poker either way.

Originally Posted by aokrongly

The point was what do you do AFTER you make a goal?

You celebrate for a day and then you set a another goal.

Originally Posted by aokrongly

But the point of the thread is that if you get results centered you will ultimately lose, but if you stay process centered you will continue to grow.

If the process is right. How sure u can be for something if u dont "test" it ?
Results PROVE that the process u follow is good.
Especially when its long-term results.
If Michael Jordan was gratefull JUST BECAUSE he is ablebodied he would never achieve to be the best basketball player who ever walk on Earth.
Be gratefull and thankful for everything "good" u believe u have but dont stuck to that. Chase more , ask more , demand more. Evolve
Thats the only way to reach the top.

Originally Posted by aokrongly

"I'm so proud of myself, I haven't played Q9s in forever. I used to play that all the time. I was an idiot."

Million of stats prove that Q9s is not a profitable hand.
Results PROVE that.
Be gratefull about stop playing this rags BUT set another goal and start folding another week hand.

Why you need results ?
How can u know if the process u are following is good ?
Results will confirm that.
Do you see why ?

OK.

"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistance and determination alone are omnipotent." Calvin Coolidge

I think you guys both have very valid points and they actually don't exclude or contradict each other as much as you might think. Thanks aok for that great post, I am 100% with you about the importance of enjoying the journey and not focussing only on the results. But I think you put it in a too black/white generalized way when you say either you're process oriented or you're results oriented and you will ultimately fail when it's the latter. That's far too generalized and simplified, reality is much more complex. Same for the athletes - there are many who have achieved greatness by being mostly results-oriented and who still lead happy & prosperous lifes. Of course there are those as well that you mentioned.

My point is the following: You can be both results- and process- oriented. You can set clear goals, achieve them, move on to the next ones and at the same time very consiously enjoy the ride, even if it is a rollercoaster one. I don't think people are successful when being ONLY results oriented or ONLY process oriented. To be successful, one needs to find a good balance of both. Goals and results are very important to as they set the direction and let you know where you stand. But they are really a two-edged sword - if you don't have an understanding that the process you go through while you try to reach them is much more important and as joyful as actually reaching them, you may ironically fail by reaching them. That process makes us evolve and the results prove how we've evolved. Evolution takes its own ways, often we reach different goals than we originally intended to because we decided to change direction on the way. Which is perfectly fine and lets us find new, challenging goals again and evolve further and enjoy the ride. One thing leads to the next one, one door closes, another one opens. Maybe we end up in a completely different destination and find out that it is even much better there than the one we were originally aiming at.

Hmmm what does this mean translated to poker? Probably something like yes, set clear goals and regularly evaluate the results, where you stand, what you can improve, etc. But don't go overboard with that, don't go crazy when you don't reach a goal as desired. Yesss aok, celebrate your achievements, your steps forward even if they seem little, instead of accusing yourself of not being as far yet as you'd like to be. Enjoy your love and passion for this game, have fun playing it and observing your own evolution. Doing this and relieving the pressure of "having" to achieve goals makes it much easier to actually achieve them on the way, while having a good laugh It's a matter of finding the right personal balance between results- and process-oriented, it can bifferent for each one.

What a discussion we're having here...isn't poker a great mirror of life overall?

Cool, a little bit of philosophy.

My miserable take on the previous is that Mr. A O'k voices more of an "Eastern" opinion whereas Mr. Manners, has more of a Western, dare I say Capitalist, take on life.

To enjoy the journey is the secret to happiness. Setting goals works for people who think that way, and who really don't expand beyond the next goal.

It makes life easier, to be able to set goals. It always keeps those types who are incapable of introspection from offing themselves, I always think, but the people who cope better with life are the ones who do enjoy the journey. Maybe the ones who set goals are better poker players, business people and actors, for instance, but I can only speculate on that.

I'm not really a goal setter, since I lack ambition, but I'm also too angry at the world to enjoy the journey. Maybe one or the other will change as life goes on. Things do change.

Poker is a very interesting game that parallels many things in life, especially in our capitalist, materialistic world, but I don't think that it will ever make any one truly happy. It is a nice addition to the journey, though.

Remember, (and this is a paraphrase of a great quote that I have never managed to find back), there's not much in life that matters, and in the end, nothing matters at all.

Jigs

If I were a king, if I had everything
If I had you and I could give you your dreams
If I were giant-sized, on top of it all
Then tell me what in the world would I go on for?
If I had it all... I'd fuck it up

- Dave Matthews