[spoonitnow strategy] 7-4 Comparing and Evaluating Different Bluffing Lines

This week's strategy topic is comparing different bluffing lines. If you have two different ways to bluff (lead vs. check/raise, for example), then how do you evaluate the two lines to decide which is best?

http://www.flopturnriver.com/blogs/c...ng-lines-17983

We're starting to use the ideas that we have learned in previous posts to begin developing more robust strategies. Which bluffing lines do you usually use, and what alternate lines could you use instead?

Are you going to go into the dynamic of when your opponents may adapt to your exploitation of their tendencies? For example, if you start to cbet a lot of dead boards because our opponent folds a lot, if we keep exploiting him like this, there may come a time where even the worst kinds of players will start to play back at our exploitation. So you come at a point where you may face a flop raise and you don't know if he did pick up a hand or is playing back out of frustration.

Originally Posted by jackvance

Are you going to go into the dynamic of when your opponents may adapt to your exploitation of their tendencies? For example, if you start to cbet a lot of dead boards because our opponent folds a lot, if we keep exploiting him like this, there may come a time where even the worst kinds of players will start to play back at our exploitation. So you come at a point where you may face a flop raise and you don't know if he did pick up a hand or is playing back out of frustration.

It'll come eventually. Reading adjustments and making counter-adjustments are several steps ahead of where we are right now.

Whenever our opponents strategies change, we have to decide if they have changed enough that it means we should make an adjustment. This is essentially the same kind of idea as choosing between two different bluffing lines.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Whenever our opponents strategies change, we have to decide if they have changed enough that it means we should make an adjustment. This is essentially the same kind of idea as choosing between two different bluffing lines.

Don't worry spoon I'm going to post some hands tomorrow.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

However, if we can check/raise our opponent and get him to fold a lot as well, then we have a decision to make between leading or check/raising with a lot of our weak hands. Note that we can also make a decision to have a weak range in both spots if we so desire.

Quoted from spoon's article.

Spoon, what if I don't donk very often at all? should i just move more weak hands in my c/r range??? I feel like vs. a villain who I'm bluffing against is capable of folding therfore will be aware of my infrequent donks .

Originally Posted by WeldPhaser

Quoted from spoon's article.

Spoon, what if I don't donk very often at all? should i just move more weak hands in my c/r range??? I feel like vs. a villain who I'm bluffing against is capable of folding therfore will be aware of my infrequent donks .

If I'm understanding you correctly, then you are concerned that your infrequent donk bets will somehow tip off your opponent that you are bluffing. If that was true, then you could take advantage of it by only donking with strong hands.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

If I'm understanding you correctly, then you are concerned that your infrequent donk bets will somehow tip off your opponent that you are bluffing. If that was true, then you could take advantage of it by only donking with strong hands.

This is true, and then by donk w a strong range i could work it into my game, and eventually start bluffing because i was only ever donking strength.

I'd incorporate donks in my play if I was you. Start off doing it with a gutshot when you have 7-high or something like that, or complete air on a board you could have easily hit. See how people respond to it. Then incorporate value hands. Remember, most of the pros donk a set and continue value betting big on next streets.

Originally Posted by jackvance

I'd incorporate donks in my play if I was you. Start off doing it with a gutshot when you have 7-high or something like that, or complete air on a board you could have easily hit. See how people respond to it. Then incorporate value hands. Remember, most of the pros donk a set and continue value betting big on next streets.

I really like the idea of incorporating donking to expand my bluff lines and give me more chances to get value in play.

TBH, I had been keeping donking on the shelf since I started back in Oct because I was so busy working on fundamentals I didn't want to complicate my game by donking. Correct me if I'm wrong, but donking frequently effects a lot. It changes what we c/r w/. even are c/c range is ultimately effected right?

how bout donking vs. fishy's, like this i just played..

Pre, not 3bing cause no ones folding, is this a could spot to donk for value vs. fish

Note: I more or less did it just to start conversation on the matter


Revolution Gaming Network - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (SB): $11.69
BB: $9.03 (VPIP: 33.12, PFR: 23.25, 3Bet Preflop: 5.21, Hands: 319)
UTG: $14.11 (VPIP: 47.62, PFR: 38.10, 3Bet Preflop: 28.57, Hands: 21)
CO: $8.28 (VPIP: 68.75, PFR: 6.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 16)
BTN: $14.96 (VPIP: 80.95, PFR: 23.81, 3Bet Preflop: 20.00, Hands: 21)

Hero posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.15) Hero has J A

fold, CO calls $0.10, BTN raises to $0.20, Hero calls $0.15, fold, CO calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.70, 3 players) T Q A
Hero bets $0.35,

Originally Posted by WeldPhaser

I really like the idea of incorporating donking to expand my bluff lines and give me more chances to get value in play.

TBH, I had been keeping donking on the shelf since I started back in Oct because I was so busy working on fundamentals I didn't want to complicate my game by donking. Correct me if I'm wrong, but donking frequently effects a lot. It changes what we c/r w/. even are c/c range is ultimately effected right?

Yes ofcourse, you take things from your c/c c/f and c/r ranges, so it changes everything. Remember, people don't face donks all that often, their reaction will typically be fold or raise when you start doing it. It's just a good idea to have many different lines for value, bluffs, semi-bluffs, so you can mix it up and become unreadable. Always checking the flop when you call a raise OOP just plain sucks.

Originally Posted by jackvance

Always checking the flop when you call a raise OOP just plain sucks.

Yeah, it's surely limited

Originally Posted by WeldPhaser

how bout donking vs. fishy's, like this i just played..

Pre, not 3bing cause no ones folding, is this a could spot to donk for value vs. fish

Note: I more or less did it just to start conversation on the matter


Revolution Gaming Network - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (SB): $11.69
BB: $9.03 (VPIP: 33.12, PFR: 23.25, 3Bet Preflop: 5.21, Hands: 319)
UTG: $14.11 (VPIP: 47.62, PFR: 38.10, 3Bet Preflop: 28.57, Hands: 21)
CO: $8.28 (VPIP: 68.75, PFR: 6.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 16)
BTN: $14.96 (VPIP: 80.95, PFR: 23.81, 3Bet Preflop: 20.00, Hands: 21)

Hero posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.15) Hero has J A

fold, CO calls $0.10, BTN raises to $0.20, Hero calls $0.15, fold, CO calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.70, 3 players) T Q A
Hero bets $0.35,

bet too small

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

bet too small

Thanks bikesm maybe .55 on a board like this?

I'd really like to stay on this Donking subject, it's important. especially in conjunction w/ this weeks bluffing article. Let's take a gander at this hand....

Pre: I could of 3b for sure, but i was implementing this weeks strat.

Flop. Since villain isn't a total fish i decide i can go ahead and bluff (semi-bluff) here. if my donk was a pure bluff I'd need to get a fold 33% Of the time.

I know this is the first time he's seen me donk, even if he thinks it's FOS i wou;d think he would have a hard time raising me here.

Good donk Semi- bluff

Revolution Gaming Network - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BB: $11.56 (VPIP: 20.18, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 114)
UTG: $3.53 (VPIP: 36.36, PFR: 13.64, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 22)
MP: $12.32 (VPIP: 34.08, PFR: 24.34, 3Bet Preflop: 6.10, Hands: 271)
CO: $7.20 (VPIP: 31.58, PFR: 10.53, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 38)
BTN: $11.30 (VPIP: 20.25, PFR: 15.19, 3Bet Preflop: 6.25, Hands: 80)Att steal: 38
Hero (SB): $13.83

Hero posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.15) Hero has Q J

fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to $0.27, Hero calls $0.22, fold

Flop: ($0.64, 2 players) 2 9 K
Hero bets $0.32,

Bet a bit more, if you had a K you'd want to protect it from being outdrawn too.

Originally Posted by jackvance

Bet a bit more, if you had a K you'd want to protect it from being outdrawn too.

good point, now from villains POV, How would you perceive my donk???